Off hand Natural Attacks! Help Please!

[whatisitgoodfor]

-4 off hand penalty (natural attacks are always Light weapons)
-5 Secondary natural attack penalty

Only the off-hand penalty will apply. The -5 secondary attack penalty applies when dealing with natural attack progression, not weapon fighting progression.

If the Troll takes ITWF, TWF, and Ambi, he will attack at:

Sword: +8/+3
Claw: +8/+3
Bite: +8/+3

However, with one more level of fighter, it becomes

Sword: +9/+4/-1
Claw: +9/+4
Bite: +9/+4

since Itwf only allows for one iterative attack with the off hand(s).

 

[Malin Genie]

I think that it is a mistake to give 'character progression' (allowing iterative attacks with a weapon) *and* 'monster progression' (secondary attacks with natural attacks.)

IMO you either give up that second iterative attack with the sword, or you give up your natural attacks.

 

[Burne]

My problem with what I posted was that fact that I seemed to be penalizing the off-hand twice, and the disparety between two weapon fighting with sword/sword vs. sword/claw.

Whatisitgoodfor: I didn't understand what you were trying to say, Sorry

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

My problem with what I posted was that fact that I seemed to be penalizing the off-hand twice,

Don't worry, you were. Depending on your interperetation, either the -4 for TWF applies, or the -5 for monster attacks applies (IIRC, the official version is the -4). Under no circumstance do both penalties apply.

and the disparety between two weapon fighting with sword/sword vs. sword/claw.

Well, that is just a problem that Wizards has. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any differance. All this does is make it much harder to figure out how the monsterous PC's are supposed to work.

 

[Burne]

Found this example, related to the discussion, on Wizards site.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/fc/fc20011208a

What this shows:
* The offhand natural attacks take the Multiattack penalty but no others, even while fighting with 2 weapons (or a double weapon in this case).
* Taking those off hand natural attacks does _not_ penalize the primary hand iterative attacks at all!!
* Mind Flayers are cool.

Here's that hypothetical creature again. +4 creature BAB, 6 fighter lvls, natural attacks are 4 Claws, 1 Bite. Again lets ignore Strength for the time, as it has no bearing. Some one handed weapon in one hand, full attacking. Has none of the appropriate feats (multiattack, 2tw, Ambi)

Is this correct:
Primary attack with sword (iterative)
+10 base
-4 two weapon fighting penalty
-----
+6/+1 primary
Off hand attacks: 3 claws & a bite
+10 base
-5 Natural attack penalty
-----
+5 secondary attacks

This leaves us with a attack sequence of
+6/+1 sword, 3 claws +5, 1 bite +5 for a total of 6 attacks.

Adding two weapon fighting, ambidexterity and a light weapon in one of the other claws, our new attack sequence is:
+8/+3 sword,+8 offhand sword, 2 claws +5, 1 bite +5 for a total of 7 attacks.

If anyone has a variation on this that I haven't covered, or seriously disagrees with my interpratatoin of the Fight Club monster, please speak up. As it is I'm basing this on just that one monster and I'm hoping he represents the rule rather than the exception.