Off To War... Recriutment/Discussion

[Dragonwriter]

(check out Jareth's new cloak )

Not quite mine, remember? Of course, it also would've been better if Jareth knew the meaning of "stealth."

And congrats on the PHB2. Now you can finally see the whole text on what I'm playing. And I might be able to use some of those PHB2 spells, like Kelgore's Fire Bolt.

 

[Myth and Legend]

Grats on the books HM! Now if you only got Unearthed Arcana, Spell Compendium and Complete: Warrior, Arcane, Divine, Scoundrel and Mage... Oh and Races of Stone and Dragon Magic and... wait. There's no end to those books is there... But seriously UA/SC/Complete* are the most important IMO.

And don't get Libris Mortis because... Well because i haven't given up on VOTD and i can't have you choosing a class that permannetly slays Undead can I? (just kidding)

 

[Gondsman]

i have a question for you HM reguarding a possible other homebrew item (because i can't find a similar itemin books) for my character. Rather than picking up Mobility at L2, how about a homebrew feat we'll call Divine Mage that allows me to stack cleric and wizard levels to determine caster level for spell effects and caster level checks. I say this because if I do alternate levels up to 6th before moving on to the PRC I'll be L5 before i can cast a MagicMissile with two bolts, and it will decrease my healing contribution (at L6 CLW is still only 1d6+3) Anyway, thought I'd present it now and give you a chance to mull it over. I get the idea from feats like Ascetic Mage that allow you to stack monk/wizard levels to determine Unarmed attacks. in the end it only amounts to a +3 bonus to my Caster level for each class

 

[HolyMan]

Not quite mine, remember? Of course, it also would've been better if Jareth knew the meaning of "stealth."

And congrats on the PHB2. Now you can finally see the whole text on what I'm playing. And I might be able to use some of those PHB2 spells, like Kelgore's Fire Bolt.

Thanks and no way you are getting a d6/lvl instant hit save for half spell, think it needs tweaked to either a range attack no save, or ranged touch attack still with save. Some of the spells they come up with are truly bizzare.

And the closk is only till I can figure out something else. and you better not let the elves catch you better stealth up.

Grats on the books HM! Now if you only got Unearthed Arcana, Spell Compendium and Complete: Warrior, Arcane, Divine, Scoundrel and Mage... Oh and Races of Stone and Dragon Magic and... wait. There's no end to those books is there... But seriously UA/SC/Complete* are the most important IMO.

And don't get Libris Mortis because... Well because i haven't given up on VOTD and i can't have you choosing a class that permannetly slays Undead can I? (just kidding)

I have UA as a pdf was trying for 1ste and got 3e instead. And I plan on bring th collect back up somewhat but some of those books I never used at all.

I just want to RP in VotD my build will not be heavy take on the bad guys that is why Thok is around.

i have a question for you HM reguarding a possible other homebrew item (because i can't find a similar itemin books) for my character. Rather than picking up Mobility at L2, how about a homebrew feat we'll call Divine Mage that allows me to stack cleric and wizard levels to determine caster level for spell effects and caster level checks. I say this because if I do alternate levels up to 6th before moving on to the PRC I'll be L5 before i can cast a MagicMissile with two bolts, and it will decrease my healing contribution (at L6 CLW is still only 1d6+3) Anyway, thought I'd present it now and give you a chance to mull it over. I get the idea from feats like Ascetic Mage that allow you to stack monk/wizard levels to determine Unarmed attacks. in the end it only amounts to a +3 bonus to my Caster level for each class

You know what I was thinking what about the Divine Feats that let you trade in Turn Undead attempts for abilities like Sacred Healing. As a DM I should make encounters that give the players a chance to use all their abilities but I can't even promise every other encounter will have undead in it, so you may want to look for a way to get soem use out of those attempts you have first. And what about adding your ideal to the Mystic Theruge class as a bonus shouldn't they combine the abilities of both when you "ascend " to being one.

Class Ability: A 1st lvl Mystic Theruge adds +3 to his total caster lvl for any spell he casts.

Or something similar.

HM

 

[Dragonwriter]

Thanks and no way you are getting a d6/lvl instant hit save for half spell, think it needs tweaked to either a range attack no save, or ranged touch attack still with save. Some of the spells they come up with are truly bizzare.

Uh, if that's the way you see Kelgore's Fire Bolt, I'd be interested in how you look at the more-powerful Fireball. Or even plain old Burning Hands. The "Fire Bolt" is single-target and can only deal 5d6, maximum. And they get a Reflex save for half... Which is generally not-as-good as a ranged touch attack.

If you take a look at destructive/combat-oriented spells, you'll notice the parallel concerning attack/save; if you roll the attack, there is no save and if there's a save, you don't roll an attack. That's how it goes for the vast majority.

(By the way, if you think that is overpowered, don't buy Spell Compendium. Tons of stuff in there will make you go insane, in the bad way.)

 

[Gondsman]

If we make it a feature of the PRC then i still have the problem all the way through L6, not until L7 do i get that stuff. Here's one thing to think about. At L2 I'll be CL1 in both classes. some spells i can cast from both classes, detect magic being one, but instead of now having double the duration, i have the same old lame duration. while yes it would make sense for that to be a class feature, the lame part is working all the way to L7 being lame at both arcane and divine magic..

As for turning, with my charisma, turning is going to be lame anyway so maybe I should look at some of that.

in Complete divine they have the Practiced spellcaster feat that gives you +4(no more than HD) CL in a class. If we split that between the two and then made the class feature to be +1 to each that would lessen the suck.

 

[HolyMan]

@DW: but at 5th lvl you can cast that spell how many times?? 5 or 6 at 5d6 each and fireball you only would have 1 or 2. I believe you should use spells like magic missile, burning hands, and fireball and the like as the base for all other spells. And see where a new spell falls into place.

Nothing is to overpowered it can't be changed to compensate, add a lvl, add an attack roll, or change the damage die. And you have a more balanced spell.

I feel they never play test these new spells at high lvls to see what would happened if a powerful caster had access to the spell and things like meta-magic feats and such. Cast a quicken firebolt and a regular one in the same round for auto hit 10d6, save for half?? just adding an attack roll makes that a little better.

@Gondsman: that feat you suggested and the change sound good, also you need to suck before you can be the ultimate caster that's why I was saying lvl 7 to take that but the feat will give you something till you hit your PRC, but let's wait to get it till lvl 4 that way your max of +2 will be np because each class will be second lvl and it gives you something to look forward to. (just save one of those cleric swaps to use at lvl4)

hmmm... your turn undead is weak huh?? where is my elven vampire stats?? LOL

HM

 

[Dragonwriter]

@DW: but at 5th lvl you can cast that spell how many times?? 5 or 6 at 5d6 each and fireball you only would have 1 or 2. I believe you should use spells like magic missile, burning hands, and fireball and the like as the base for all other spells. And see where a new spell falls into place.

Nothing is to overpowered it can't be changed to compensate, add a lvl, add an attack roll, or change the damage die. And you have a more balanced spell.

I feel they never play test these new spells at high lvls to see what would happened if a powerful caster had access to the spell and things like meta-magic feats and such. Cast a quicken firebolt and a regular one in the same round for auto hit 10d6, save for half?? just adding an attack roll makes that a little better.

Fire Bolt is only slightly better than Burning Hands for damage, and it only affects one target (rather than Burning Hands‘ area effect). And my spells/day may beat out a Sorcerer (eventually), but my available choices are considerably less. I learn 1 spell/level, flat, from a very small list. Nothing more. A Sorcerer (never mind a Wizard) will always have more spell-based options than I. I can’t even channel Fire Bolt.
(By the way, I can’t quicken either. I cast spontaneously, so any Metamagic makes my casting time a whole lot longer. The only thing that comes close to Quicken is my Class Feature: Quick Cast, which is a limited number of times/day.)

[sblock=Quick Comparison between Fire Bolt and a few other spells]
If you want to compare Kelgore’s Fire Bolt to Burning Hands and MM (and I can‘t learn MM), like you mentioned, here’s an evaluation.

Vs. Magic Missile: FB is capped at 5d6 at level 5 (average damage 20) while MM is capped at 5d4+5 (average damage 17). FB can be halved by a Reflex save (or negated by evasion). MM can only be stopped by SR, and doesn’t even require an attack roll. MM can also be spread out among multiple targets.

Vs. Burning Hands: BH is capped at 5d4 (average damage 12), so it is weaker. At first glance. But BH can be used to catch several foes, increasing the damage dealt. Reflex save is a wash on this one.

Vs. Color Spray: Color Spray can completely disable targets, in an area. 5d6 damage is pitiful in comparison to ending the fight.

Quicken: A Wizard (and ONLY a Wizard) could quicken this, for a 5th-level spell slot. Waste of a slot. It would be much better spent on a buff like Mage Armor or an actual 5th-level spell. Never mind that Duskblades can’t quicken at all…

Then there are buff, debuff, and instant-kill spells, all of which leave this in the dust. For example: Polymorph, cast by a 7th-level Wizard, shared with his familiar to have BOTH of them become 7-headed Hydras. Even Enlarge Person (another 1st-level) could easily be more effective for/on Jareth, increasing his STR, reach, etc.

Honestly HM, if you’re concerned about balanced spells, just read through Core before you get scared of a little 1st-level 5d6 w/Ref half.
[/sblock]

Also, making it a ranged touch attack would actually favor me (high BAB, decent DEX, possibility of crit). Even a 20th-level spell caster can only get a 1st-level spell DC up to 25, at best, and that can still be beaten by a negative Ref save on a natural 20. And Jareth isn’t going to focus like that.

…I’m sorry if this sounds like I’m getting a bit riled up. This just strikes me as a knee-jerk “no.”

 

[Myth and Legend]

At the later stages of the game, "blasting" (aka damage spells) becomes much weaker than control/save-or-die spells.

That being said, if one really wanted to buff these mediocre spells (IMO at least), then one can use Metamagic Rods + metamagic feats. At Epic levels one can quicken spontaneously (or "instaquicken") spells at no cost of sell slots. But by that time I'd rather do something like "Quickened Disintegrate + Heightened Disintegrate" rather than "Crappy damage spell+other crappy damage spell".

The reason being that most direct damage spells are capped for DMG D. But even the ones that are not cannot harm lategame targets quick enough.

In Jema'ls Legends my Wizardress used something along the lines of 2 or 3 Meteor Swarms, in conjunction with a Rod of Metamagic Empower + a very buffed (admixtured, thesis etc.) Cone of Cold, only to take about 1/2 of the HP of the lvl 20 Bear Warrior/Warshaper/Barbarian enemy.

She'd have been much better off to cast Gate + Bigby's something Hand and just throw him out of the battlefield. Or cast Imprisonment, or... you get my drift. Even for direct damage spells, Orbs are much better as they do not roll against SR.

 

[HolyMan]

I think we are looking at this from different perspective. Me as the DM and what I should allow in the game, and you the player what your character should be allowed to do. (oh and I forgot about Quicken as I have allowed sorcerers to take it in the past, I mean you give up a huge slot just to cast a 1st lvl spell quickly, but it works had a guy who played a magic missile machine gun once).

If I allow Firebolt in as is then anyone else can take it (man I wish it were duskblade only, why don't they have spells all their own?). And then you encounter a basilisk and POW dead on turn two before it got to go twice, because two people casted firebolts at it to lossened it up for the others.

The core rules are the bases and what you describe are your views it seems and of course there's something to be said for creative thinking (two 7 headed hydra's ouch), but I see nothing unbalanced there as they are the scale and other spells should be judged around them. How you use them is a reflection on you not on the spells themselves.

But these other books I feel throw in spells to fill up space without regard to what it does to the game long term. Once you can quicken at 5th lvl you could possible take out said basilisk by yourself on turn one. Not something I believe a 5th lvl character should be able to do automatically.

HM