Off To War... Recriutment/Discussion

[Dragonwriter]

Yeah, I might want to take the spell. There are others, but my spell list is rather limited, and more damage-dealing seems to fit Jareth’s style better than buff spells.

If you decide to nerf/ban the Fire Bolt, I can’t argue with that, but I’m trying to present information to show that it is fine, as-is. A better comparison for the Fire Bolt is a bad Shocking Grasp with a little range.

Let me go back to your first comment on KFB…

no way you are getting a d6/lvl instant hit save for half spell

Fireball is instant-hit, save for half, d6/level. Yes, I know it is higher-level (which you seemed to use as a basis for dismissing that argument), but it is the same principle. Burning Hands is instant-hit, save for half, d4/level. Both of those are area-based spells, hitting multiple people. Fireball can hit everyone in a 20-ft. radius. That's about 40 squares, all of which could be filled with people. Burning Hands could hit 8-9 people, dealing up to 5d4 to each. That could incinerate a group of conscripts on the front lines. And that's a Core 1st-level spell. In comparison, KFB is pathetic, since it can only hit one little person and they can dodge it.

You have a point on the “ganging up on the monster.” But that is only if multiple people learn the spell, we actually get our spells off (which I might not bother to do, if I can get in close), the critter fails its’ save and we hit it hard enough to kill it. Not a good line of thinking, for us. And what's to stop us using a different spell? Scorching Ray or Magic Missile, perhaps? Even Burning Hands... They will have the same outcome.
(One more reason a group of weaker critters is better than one strong critter.)

And I strongly suggest you re-think that point of view on “Core=Balance/measuring stick.” Druids and Clerics can out-fight the Fighter and Barbarian ANY and EVERY day of the week. Wizards and Sorcerers can end a fight with a single spell, even at low levels (Sleep and Color Spray remain top-dog). The Polymorph example I pointed out is a clever use of the spell, most certainly, but it suddenly puts the Wizard as a combat beast, making the poor melee-oriented schmuck cry himself to sleep. The Cleric can cast Find Traps and suddenly, no need for a Rogue (Divine Power makes Fighter obsolete, also). The Druid can summon an army at any time of day, many of which have special abilities that will make the combat classes just sit in the corner and wait.
(By the way, each of these spells I mention is Core, and available at level 7 or less. Higher levels get worse, and it's only through some serious work that I'm able to actually challenge the 14th-15th level party for whom I DM.)
This is without even the slightest optimization. A little effort on the part of the person making the character and it becomes an even wider power gap. (I dare you to go look at the old threads on the WotC d20 Character Optimization board. Start a thread here on EnWorld, even. I won't comment, I promise. Just look at other people's opinions concerning this issue.)

And if you think PH2 has unbalanced content… Trust me on this, don’t buy any more books, because the power level only ramps upwards.

 

[HolyMan]

Yeah, I might want to take the spell. There are others, but my spell list is rather limited, and more damage-dealing seems to fit Jareth’s style better than buff spells.

So you want to play a mage who can fight not a fighter who can cast?

If you decide to nerf/ban the Fire Bolt, I can’t argue with that, but I’m trying to present information to show that it is fine, as-is. A better comparison for the Fire Bolt is a bad Shocking Grasp with a little range.

Not a comparison because shocking grasp can fail meaning 0 damage and you have to be in melee range and worry about a full attack back at you. You miss with the firebolt you get to do a little damage still and your opponent has to come to you before they can attack once, maybe even giving you an AoO to boot.

Fireball is instant-hit, save for half, d6/level. Yes, I know it is higher-level (which you seemed to use as a basis for dismissing that argument), but it is the same principle.

Fireball is instant hit whomever is in the area, meaning no control and could hit your allies. It is lvl 3 making it that much more costly to empower and use other meta magic feats. At 5th lvl an average mage may take two fireballs (total 10d6) and must forgo all other spells he could have used that day. so if no combats for the day then he wasted the slots. But firebolt he would get to cast 9 times if he wanted (total 45d6). This is the reason fighters become obsolete.

Burning Hands is instant-hit, save for half, d4/level. Both of those are area-based spells, hitting multiple people. Fireball can hit everyone in a 20-ft. radius. That's about 40 squares, all of which could be filled with people. Burning Hands could hit 8-9 people, dealing up to 5d4 to each. That could incinerate a group of conscripts on the front lines. And that's a Core 1st-level spell. In comparison, KFB is pathetic, since it can only hit one little person and they can dodge it.

Not taking anything away here if the situation is right both those spells would excel over firebolt.

You have a point on the “ganging up on the monster.” But that is only if multiple people learn the spell, we actually get our spells off (which I might not bother to do, if I can get in close), the critter fails its’ save and we hit it hard enough to kill it. Not a good line of thinking, for us. And what's to stop us using a different spell? Scorching Ray or Magic Missile, perhaps? Even Burning Hands... They will have the same outcome.
(One more reason a group of weaker critters is better than one strong critter.)

It would only take two people to have you at 5th lvl casting multiply spells to ruin an encounter quickly. Things like Burning hands make it so you have to have the right situation (not going to happen every time) And Scorching ray can miss = 0 damage, Magic Missile only gets stronger over time you have to be 9th lvl before you can use it to maxium effect. That is another part of my distaste it max's out early.

And I strongly suggest you re-think that point of view on “Core=Balance/measuring stick.” Druids and Clerics can out-fight the Fighter and Barbarian ANY and EVERY day of the week. Wizards and Sorcerers can end a fight with a single spell, even at low levels (Sleep and Color Spray remain top-dog).

WE need to have something as a base what do you suggest we use to see where a new spell lies in relation to others that have gone before it? I believe that is an untrue statement, you may be thinking Clerics and Druids and low level Wizards are good for at least one or two encounters but after that they are usually spent. And at first level sleep does rule but after those first two you better hope there is some fighters in the party. And find traps can a Cleric cast it in every room of a typical dungeon? I say typical but it seems here on the boards it doesn't run like that you should have between 7-8 encounters before retiring for the night.

The Polymorph example I pointed out is a clever use of the spell, most certainly, but it suddenly puts the Wizard as a combat beast, making the poor melee-oriented schmuck cry himself to sleep. The Cleric can cast Find Traps and suddenly, no need for a Rogue (Divine Power makes Fighter obsolete, also). The Druid can summon an army at any time of day, many of which have special abilities that will make the combat classes just sit in the corner and wait.

Again you are thinking along the lines of a typical encounter and casters having full spells, then I would say yes to all the above but spells run out and a sharp sword and full plate do not.

(By the way, each of these spells I mention is Core, and available at level 7 or less. Higher levels get worse, and it's only through some serious work that I'm able to actually challenge the 14th-15th level party for whom I DM.)
This is without even the slightest optimization. A little effort on the part of the person making the character and it becomes an even wider power gap. (I dare you to go look at the old threads on the WotC d20 Character Optimization board. Start a thread here on EnWorld, even. I won't comment, I promise. Just look at other people's opinions concerning this issue.)

No need for that we can work this out. I'm coming from the point of view that core is bases and all spells are made from them. The firebolt is not a fireball because it can only effect one person, you can't say it only has 5d6 max damage because a 10th lvl mage could cast up to 8 -10d6 fireballs or 16 - 5d6 firebolts so that is the same amount if damage. Just the fireballs give you more room for other spells. Now firebolt wouldn't be bad if it weren't so similar to a spell two lvls higher than it. Scorching ray is one lvl higher but with the chance to miss and not getting full effect till 11th lvl (instead of 5th), I can't see why this couldn't either be 2nd lvl or be made into a ranged touch attack?

And if you think PH2 has unbalanced content… Trust me on this, don’t buy any more books, because the power level only ramps upwards.

I use to have things like complete arcane and complete divine but never used the spells within because there were better core spells out their. Now your case is a little different, being as how you have a limited spell list and about a 1/3 of each per lvl is not standard. You seem to like this inferior spell alot because you believe it is all you can get, which leads to my question:

Is the only reason you wish to have the firebolt is to have some ranged capablity when needed? Because if that's the case I would say take magic missile instead lot better spell (I know it isn't on your list are we playing by the book?) It will also help out in game RP wise which I would find most enjoyable.

HM

 

[Dragonwriter]

This is going nowhere... So forget it. I'll just take a different spell at my next level. KFB was just the first that came to mind and fit Jareth's concept. And I like fire.

If you want to alter it to a ranged touch spell, that's fine with me. Just bear in mind that changing it to be so would make the spell better, not weaker. Touch attacks are hard to miss. Saves are easy to beat.

Thankfully, there are other spells out there. KFB just fit Jareth best, from his list.

 

[Gondsman]

HM i hate to say this but I have to side with DW on this one. like you yourself said "spells run out." Do you really expect us to believe that it is outside the power of the DM to create encounters that will challenge even the most min/maxed character? If you are really so worried about him casting the spell 9 times (like catching 9 guys in a fireball) put a limit on it 2/day or something and if you find out that it is in fact impossible to manipulate the game (the very job of the DM) such that it remains a challenge then you make changes later.

Now part of my view on this game (which is the stance most emphasized by 4e) is that we are heroes. Every once in a while we should get to just nail a monster to show off, that is what heroes do.

Let me introduce you to Nakor Han, Priest of Lathandar talk about an overpowered cleric. I had all 9 levels of him in an adventure with one L5 a couple of threes and ones. After Every battle he'd automatically heal everyone up to full. And yet, he wouldn't cast an actual spell in battle (or use his /day items) even to save his life. Drove me crazy, even verses undead that were too powerful to turn, all he did was try to turn them, when a searing light or two would have reduced them all to so much powder.

My point is, that you aren't the authority on how DW will play his character, he is. He may get into a battle where he could blast away all 9 of those, but maybe he's smarter than you and actually realizes that "spells run out" and won't blow them all on one guy. And if he does start to wade through people like that, blasting every enemy to ash, throw us a fire resistant baddy once in a while. Just because you would abuse the spell doesn't mean he would, and just because you can doesn't make it smart.

I see no balance issue with the spell. That's coming from the mouth of a DM who has dealt with munchkins on a regular basis.

 

[HolyMan]

@DW about that spell list it seems small to me. I hate things that make every other character of a class just like the other guy. All of them taking the same options and such, but will see what happens later.

@Gondsman good points but in pbp like I said before it is usually one encounter, RP, one encounter, RP/rest. Making it easy to use everything in one encounter but...


I think we have dragged this out long enough, take whatever the book says I'm sure it has been properly playtested (like polymorphed hydras were) and should fit nicely into the norm.

But remember you have options to switch out things and change the class, in this instance I was hoping for a change in the spell list so when you met some elven duskblades they would be like "That's not possible how can he do that, it must be his human blood. Maybe we were wrong to keep the secerts to ourselves they seem even able to surpass us."

But I'll figure something else out.

HM

 

[HolyMan]

@deskjob: Great post very visiual and wrote quite well didn't know what to do about your character and Gondsmans' do to you not being "Heroes of the Western Woods" but you helped out there thanks

@DW good post I saw you keeping Jareth in character there. (good 'ol CHA 8 ) remember in the game you only gave the manor about a days notice that the Treylor were on their doorstep. But we have been playing this game for three months. So a quick plan seems right at this moment and time.

@ghostcat were was Mogins during dinner LOL

O.k. everyone we are on a last month of our first year starting tommorrow, and here's somethings I have been thinking of.

1) I'm going to have a last post for this OOC end of June and start a new Off to War OCC (Year 2) at that time.
2) The last post will try and be a recap of what went on before game wise and give some links to "key info" the group has learned.
3) This battle is going to be a major one and I am working on rules to put in the houserules for it. This is going to be the first in a series of like battles, and is one of the reasons I started this type of campaign.
4) Spliting the group - I am having a tough time thinking of a way to get Trinham, Claude, and Lora (or even a reason to go) into the elven forest. But I have noticed those three characters will all be lvl4 and the others will be about lvls 2-3 so was thinking of having one group return to the army when they arrive and having the others go ino the forest. This could change, I would like a few more new recurits of lvl 1 to join the forest group if I did split everyone up.
5) PrC development:
@ML - don't you need to face an enemy in combat and not use spells - this would be the time.
@FM - Going to introduce you to the order soon (something major about to happen IC first ) and then will work on the RPing of getting into your PrC.
@ Gondsman - when you take that feat a little RP as to the combining of your two spell like abilities?? I don't know maybe use the living force called magic or whatever you decide bring about this change in you.
@ anyone else who wants a PrC just let me know.

Other thoughts are out there just can't think on them now.

HM

 

[HolyMan]

Experience May 16th - May 31st

[U]Player                                   XP[/U]
Gondsman                                365
Deskjob                                 285
Dragonwriter                            475
ghostcat                                655
Frozen Messiah                          385
Myth and Legend                         450

CONGRATS Deskjob and ghostcat on your LVL ups

ghostcat knows how this is done but Deskjob you will need to make a lvl up post in the RG and could you add a link to that character class in your character post for easy referal thanks.

HM

 

[Frozen Messiah]

Could you explain exactly where everyone is positioned and the basic plan in OOC HM, please?

 

[HolyMan]

NP FM let's see:

on the left you would have Jareth and 10 men at arms.

the center would have Claude, Lora, Lurik, Marko, Trinham along with 30+ viliiagers.

And Robert and the other ten men at arms would be on the right.

Vance, Brend, Skazul, Kase, and Onesimus would be the advancing party.

Lot of people/NPC in this and is why I need to work on some postig rules to make this easy/speedy posting.

HM

 

[Frozen Messiah]

NP FM let's see:

on the left you would have Jareth and 10 men at arms.

the center would have Claude, Lora, Lurik, Marko, Trinham along with 30+ viliiagers.

And Robert and the other ten men at arms would be on the right.

Vance, Brend, Skazul, Kase, and Onesimus would be the advancing party.

Lot of people/NPC in this and is why I need to work on some postig rules to make this easy/speedy posting.

HM

Thanks, so it is basically a pincer movement but in defensive style to attempt to flank the opposition. Alrighty then!