Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

epithet · Feb 10, 2019

Maxperson said:
... The filter is set up before you even begin the act of taking the selfie or else you add it after.
...
...You don't get to even try to target someone without taking the attack action. ... The new Crawford ruling doesn't affect that.

The filter is a good example, because you can apply it before or after you snap the picture.

Crawford has made a big deal about how your declaration of action isn't an action, the only way to parse his statements on the D&D YouTube clips lately with the published Sage Advice and the PHB combat rules is that, according to his new interpretation, you have not taken the Attack Action unless you have rolled a d20. "Trying to target someone" doesn't get you there.

Hussar · Feb 10, 2019

epithet said:
The filter is a good example, because you can apply it before or after you snap the picture.

Crawford has made a big deal about how your declaration of action isn't an action, the only way to parse his statements on the D&D YouTube clips lately with the published Sage Advice and the PHB combat rules is that, according to his new interpretation, you have not taken the Attack Action unless you have rolled a d20. "Trying to target someone" doesn't get you there.

Yes, and what's the problem with that?

Specific trumps general. Normally, saying, "I target X" doesn't mean anything. Nothing has happened until such time as you roll that attack roll. However, when a Sanctuary spell is in place, then targeting has an effect.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Or are you saying I cannot change my mind about my target before I roll an attack?

Maxperson · Feb 10, 2019

epithet said:
The filter is a good example, because you can apply it before or after you snap the picture.

The act of snapping the picture is the selfie, though. So yes, the filter is a good example. If you add it before you take the selfie, it doesn't apply to this conversation because you have not yet even begun the act of taking the selfie. However, if you add it after the selfie, it's a picture perfect(pardon the pun) example of Shield Master. If you take a selfie, you may add a filter as a bonus action.

Crawford has made a big deal about how your declaration of action isn't an action, the only way to parse his statements on the D&D YouTube clips lately with the published Sage Advice and the PHB combat rules is that, according to his new interpretation, you have not taken the Attack Action unless you have rolled a d20. "Trying to target someone" doesn't get you there.

The action rules and specific beats general rules of Sanctuary say otherwise. Under Making an Attack, step 1 is choose targets, so you are making an attack as soon as targeting comes up as an issue. Sanctuary interrupts your attack and if it prevents targeting, causes the loss of your attacks. You don't to Making an Attack until you take the attack action. The same goes for spells and the Cast a Spell action.

epithet · Feb 10, 2019

Hussar said:
Grammar Pedantry Warning!!

"You take" is not "present" tense, but, rather present simple and is used for actions that are repeated over time. "If you take" is conditional tense and typically follows that the conditions must be met before the second part of the sentence occurs.

Such as, "If it rains, I will take an umbrella" would be most common. If/can clauses are also typically read this way. "If I have a driver's license, I can legally drive a car" would be a good example. Without the conditional, the result is not possible.

So, a grammatical reading of "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." would read that the Attack action must be taken before you can take your bonus action. The Attack action cannot be broken up - additional attacks are not additional actions. They are simply part of the same action.

(Barring, of course, specific exceptions like moving)

The RAW reading of this, coupled with an actual grammatical reading would support Crawford's interpretation. Conditionals are not read as suggestions nor are they read as having more conditions than what is stated. If/then conditionals are what they are. You take the Attack Action, then you can take the bonus action from Shield Master because the condition for taking the bonus action is that you take the Attack Action.

Now, granted, I won't be changing how we do it in our game. But, from a RAW reading, yes, I can see why this would be the RAW interpretation. For you to take the bonus action in the middle of the Attack Action requires reinterpreting the Attack Action to mean that gaining multiple attacks creates multiple Attack Actions, which can be interrupted. However, RAW doesn't support this. Attack actions are discrete - regardless of how many attacks you actually make.

None of which precludes the bonus action and the Attack Action from happening concurrently. In fact, it makes the most sense for the shove to take place as part of the Attack Action, since it is an attack. This would be just like Two-Weapon Fighting, with the only semantic difference being that Two Weapon Fighting says "When you take the Attack Action ... you can use a bonus action to attack" instead of "If you take the Attack Action." You can try to make a big deal about "when" vs. "if," but the most reasonable way to read those very similar rules is to interpret them the same way, that is to add another attack of some sort to your Attack Action.

epithet · Feb 10, 2019

Hussar said:
Yes, and what's the problem with that?

Specific trumps general. Normally, saying, "I target X" doesn't mean anything. Nothing has happened until such time as you roll that attack roll. However, when a Sanctuary spell is in place, then targeting has an effect.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Or are you saying I cannot change my mind about my target before I roll an attack?

If you fail your save, though, you have not even targeted the protected creature. Literally nothing has happened other than the saving throw.

epithet · Feb 10, 2019

Maxperson said:
... Under Making an Attack, step 1 is choose targets, so you are making an attack as soon as targeting comes up as an issue. ...

So, you're saying that simply picking a target is enough to have taken the Attack Action? Before the first roll of a d20? That should please those folks upthread who have been interpreting the rule to say you can shove after your first attack, but before your Extra Attack feature attack.

And when you activate the camera and apply the filter, you have absolutely "begun the act of taking the selfie," before hitting the shutter button. This is especially true since the image is captured by the phone's camera through the entire process, and the button only designates a frame or series of frames to be retained in the memory.

epithet · Feb 10, 2019

Maxperson said:
But again, it doesn't matter if you've failed to make the attack. You don't even get to target someone until you make an attack using the attack action. Failing to complete the attack due to Sanctuary doesn't undo your attack action. It just means that your attack action failed at step 1.

By the way, I agree with this interpretation, which is why I think Jeremy's recent Sage Advice is a load of crap.

epithet · Feb 10, 2019

Hussar said:
... The Attack action cannot be broken up - additional attacks are not additional actions. They are simply part of the same action.
...
For you to take the bonus action in the middle of the Attack Action requires reinterpreting the Attack Action to mean that gaining multiple attacks creates multiple Attack Actions, which can be interrupted. However, RAW doesn't support this. Attack actions are discrete - regardless of how many attacks you actually make.

I agree that multiple attacks do not make multiple Attack Actions. My interpretation of the published rules is that all of your attacks that come about because you have taken the Attack Action (including Extra Attack and bonus action attacks from Shield Mastery and Two Weapon Fighting) are part of the Attack Action, and the bonus action modifies the Attack Action by adding another attack.

To interpret otherwise (as Jeremy Crawford is now doing in earnest) is to say that you can break up your Attack Action with movement, with communication, with a flourish including brief utterances and gestures, or by interacting with an object in your environment, during your move or your action. The only thing you can't do during your Attack Action is make an attack. You have to make all of your attacks before you have completed your Action and can make your other attack. Open a door? Sure, no problem. Shove someone with your shield? Nope! You have to finish your attacks first. Why? Because it's an attack!

And he claims this is to keep it simple.

Maxperson · Feb 10, 2019

epithet said:
So, you're saying that simply picking a target is enough to have taken the Attack Action? Before the first roll of a d20? That should please those folks upthread who have been interpreting the rule to say you can shove after your first attack, but before your Extra Attack feature attack.

No, that's not what I'm saying. This is how you take the attack action. You tell the DM you are taking the attack action. Then as part of the action, you make an attack. That moves you a few pages further in the PHB to the Making an Attack section. Step 1 is choose a target. Step 2 is determine modifiers. Step 3 is resolve the attack. At that point the attack action is done unless you have extra attack, in which case you repeat those three steps with the possibility of moving in-between.

Sanctuary is a specific rule that beats the general one above. It stops you at step 1 and if you fail the save, ends your attack action there. At no point without the specific Sanctuary rule overriding the general Making an Attack rules does the have you taken the attack action prior to step 3.

And when you activate the camera and apply the filter, you have absolutely "begun the act of taking the selfie," before hitting the shutter button. This is especially true since the image is captured by the phone's camera through the entire process, and the button only designates a frame or series of frames to be retained in the memory.

No. No you haven't. You have simply prepared to take the selfie. The act is pointing the camera at yourself and clicking the button. That's it.

Markh3rd · Feb 10, 2019

PHB on Two Weapon Fighting

"Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."

This reads that IF you take the attack action AND make an attack, (THEN is assumed), you can bonus action attack etc.
It doesn't say after all available attacks of the main hand must be taken before the bonus action can trigger.

So therefore, the same applies to shield master, as it's description says, "You use shields not just for protection but also for offense." Basically saying your shield becomes a weapon. You are two weapon fighting with a shield. Even though the shield doesn't do damage.

PHB Making an Attack under Resolve the Attack

"3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage."

This function clearly fits a shield shove attack. The shield becomes a weapon that doesn't do damage but has a different attack effect, shove.

PHB
Shoving a Creature
"Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them."

Now here it clearly states shoving can come at any time during the multiple attacks, and replaces one of them. The exception is shield master feat which treats the attack as a bonus action you get free, instead of replacing one of your multiple attacks. It's the whole point of the feat, you get a bonus action action attack with your shield, just like a two weapon fighter, but instead of damage, you shove.

And shoving can come at anytime during your multiple attacks. Except for shield master feat, just like two weapon fighting, says you make an attack first before you get the bonus action.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

epithet

Explorer

Hussar

Legend

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

epithet

Explorer

epithet

Explorer

epithet

Explorer

epithet

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epithet

Explorer

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Markh3rd

Explorer

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