Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson · Feb 26, 2019

Arial Black said:
I'm pretty sure that we are both talking about the 5e PHB, so please can you cite where it gives you permission to move during the Dash, Dodge, and/or the Disengage actions?

Y'know, the same way as we can cite the rule which says you can take your bonus action whenever you want on your turn.

I'll only post one, since that's all I need.

"When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash."

Since there is no rule that makes actions instantaneous, we have to look at the wording to see how long the action lasts. Dash says that the action gives you extra movement during the turn, so by far the most reasonable explanation is that the Dash action lasts until you decide that you are done moving. That's the common understanding of what action means. While you are acting, you are in action.

Maxperson · Feb 26, 2019

epithet said:
Sure. In the case of the Shield Master feat, the timing is "on your turn."

No it's not. The timing is explicitly "If you take the Attack action" which limits you to when you actually take the action and after.

epithet · Feb 26, 2019

Maxperson said:
... If I take a quarter off of a shelf, the action is not being performed at all before I grab the quarter, and is over and done as soon as I pick it up. At no point is there a present tense situation where take = taking. When I grab it, I didn't yet take it as it's still on the shelf. As soon as it lifts off of the counter, I did take it and the action is immediately past tense.

Now, if there is a stack of quarters and I want to take the stack of quarters and I pick one up, at no time did I take the stack. I am taking the stack, so there is a present tense to be had, but "take" is not it.

Max, you really take the cake.

epithet · Feb 26, 2019

Maxperson said:
No it's not. The timing is explicitly "If you take the Attack action" which limits you to when you actually take the action and after.

"If" is not the same as "when."

Maxperson · Feb 26, 2019

epithet said:
Max, you really take the cake.

And if you try to take it back, I'll use my bonus action Shove that triggered when I got it.

Maxperson · Feb 26, 2019

epithet said:
"If" is not the same as "when."

True, but those "ifs" that are not "whens" don't happen until they become whens.

If I ever win the lottery I will buy a big house is an example of an if that is not a when, but you can be sure no big house is happening until the "if" becomes that "when." Or I get enough money a different way.

Similarly, "If you take the attack action" doesn't trigger anything unless you begin the Attack action, since at no point have you taken the Attack action in any way, shape or form. Until that "if" becomes the "when" of taking the attack action, there is no trigger for Shield Bash.

epithet · Feb 26, 2019

Maxperson said:
... The Rules as Written tell you what type of action you are taking in the instant you take it. The moment the PC takes a shove, it is either the action or the bonus action. Either you take it as a Bonus Action, in which case the trigger already has to have happened, or you take it as part of your Attack action, in which case you must say that as soon as you take it. There is no limbo state that the shove waits in to see what it will become.
...

That's not necessarily true.

The player states what her character is doing. The dungeon master determines what happens, or at least the means by which what happens is determined. Between those two, there is indeed a warm ray of sunshine in which sleeps Schrodinger's cat.

For example, the player states that her character, a rogue, is going to hide. Was that an action? Was it a cunning (bonus) action? You don't know until you hear what else she's going to do in the round. Furthermore, until then, you probably don't care. You know she can hide, and she has a couple of game options to make that happen, so you can just see what happens. It's called role playing. Now, you certainly can make a player state definitively what a character is doing in game terminology. You can refuse to accept "I stab it with my sword," and require a formal declaration of "I take the attack action and make an attack with my short sword." That's roll playing, and sounds like a crappy game to me, but hey... your table, your rulings.

Maxperson · Feb 26, 2019

epithet said:
That's not necessarily true.

The player states what her character is doing. The dungeon master determines what happens, or at least the means by which what happens is determined. Between those two, there is indeed a warm ray of sunshine in which sleeps Schrodinger's cat.

No. The DM cannot play the PC at all without some sort of domination effect. Short of that, the DM cannot tell the player that it's a bonus action or action. The player tells the DM which one he is doing as he states what his character is doing unless there is no option for a different kind of action. "I am using the bonus action I gained from Shield Master after my attack to shove the enemy." or "I am using my first attack in my Attack action to shove the enemy."

For example, the player states that her character, a rogue, is going to hide. Was that an action? Was it a cunning (bonus) action? You don't know until you hear what else she's going to do in the round.

Um, no. You ask which it is if the player forgot to tell you. Otherwise you know which it is, because the player is the only one who can make that decision based on the rules in question, which with Shield Master requires the "if" to become the "when" before it triggers.

How about you quote me this mythical Schrodinger's Actions rule.

epithet · Feb 26, 2019

Maxperson said:
...
Similarly, "If you take the attack action" doesn't trigger anything unless you begin the Attack action, since at no point have you taken the Attack action in any way, shape or form. Until that "if" becomes the "when" of taking the attack action, there is no trigger for Shield Bash.

When the player begins the turn with "I close to melee with the hobgoblin and try to shove him to the ground with my shield, then attack him when he's down," it is up to you to determine whether the shove is part of the Attack Action or, since the Attack Action has been taken at that point, whether it was the Shield Master bonus action and the PC has his extra attack left to strike the hobgoblin a second time. "If" has a value of "true," and "when" is "on your turn."

epithet · Feb 26, 2019

Maxperson said:
No. The DM cannot play the PC at all without some sort of domination effect. Short of that, the DM cannot tell the player that it's a bonus action or action. The player tells the DM which one he is doing as he states what his character is doing unless there is no option for a different kind of action. "I am using the bonus action I gained from Shield Master after my attack to shove the enemy." or "I am using my first attack in my Attack action to shove the enemy."
...

Applying game mechanics to the player's states character actions is not even remotely the same as "playing the character." It's the same as the player saying "I look for a way to open the gate," and you replying "Make an investigation check."

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

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