Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson · Feb 25, 2019

Arial Black said:
"IF you take the Law course at Harvard, you may take a room in the Law dormitory".

Does anyone understand that as meaning you must finish the course before you are allowed to take a room in that dormitory? Or is it conditional in the sense that you can only take the room if you also take the Law course?

Here's the thing. Harvard wouldn't make a mistake like that and say, "IF you take the Law course at Harvard, you may take a room in the Law dormitory." What Harvard(other colleges) would say is, "IF you enrolled in a Law course at Harvard, you may take a room in the Law dormitory." Enrollment is the trigger, not taking. You are not by any stretch of the imagination "taking" the class until it begins. And you certainly didn't take the class before it ended. Prior to the class beginning you were "going to take it," during the class you were, "taking it," and after the class you have "taken it" or "did you take it? Yes."

Maxperson · Feb 25, 2019

Arial Black said:
Given your ruling that you CAN divide Dodge/Disengage/Dash when you interpret them as single 'events', how can you rule that Attack/Extra Attack CANNOT be divided even though they ARE distinct 'events'?

My ruling is not that you CAN divide them. Nor is my reading of RAW. My reading of RAW is that they contain specific exceptions that divide them. The Attack action also has a specific exception that divides it. Movement. RAW provides the exceptions and nothing else by RAW can divide them. I disagree with RAW, so my ruling will allow divisions that are reasonable.

Maxperson · Feb 25, 2019

Asgorath said:
Can you point me at the rule for adjudicating what happens when the end of the turn is reached and the Attack action hasn't been taken? I've read through the PHB several times and haven't seen any language that allows you to go back in time and change a bonus action to an action, for example.

The "If...on your turn" just tells you that you have until the end of the turn to check, but until you have checked and the trigger has occurred, you don't get the bonus action from the trigger. They both have that wrong.

HomegrownHydra · Feb 25, 2019

Asgorath said:
Can you point me at the rule for adjudicating what happens when the end of the turn is reached and the Attack action hasn't been taken? I've read through the PHB several times and haven't seen any language that allows you to go back in time and change a bonus action to an action, for example.

The PHB doesn't explain how to handle any rules violation because that is something that each group decides for themsleves how they will deal with.

HomegrownHydra · Feb 25, 2019

Maxperson said:
The "If...on your turn" just tells you that you have until the end of the turn to check, but until you have checked and the trigger has occurred, you don't get the bonus action from the trigger. They both have that wrong.

If the bonus action had to happen after the trigger, then there would be no point in waiting until the end the end of the turn to check because you would already know before then.

Asgorath · Feb 25, 2019

HomegrownHydra said:
If the bonus action had to happen after the trigger, then there would be no point in waiting until the end the end of the turn to check because you would already know before then.

He didn't say (nor do the rules say) that you have to wait until the end of your turn, the trigger is taking the Attack action and you have until the end of your turn to use the bonus action you were just granted as a result of taking the Attack action.

I'll repeat my question from earlier:

For those that are still playing the Shield Master shove as coming before the Attack action, do you use the Sage Advice compendium for anything else? And if so, what is special about this particular ruling that makes you believe it's incompatible with the words in the PHB?

Hriston · Feb 25, 2019

FrogReaver said:
There's 2 issues now.

1. The initial discussion about your interpretation being invalid. You see if an interpretation is valid I'm perfectly happy with multiple valid interpretation. Please don't mistaken believing a particular interpretation is invalid as a belief that there is only ever a single valid interpretation.

I would usually assume as much if my interpretation were received with anything resembling good faith. Instead, there's a great deal of misrepresentation going on, including the following:

FrogReaver said:
2. The point you made just a few posts back where you argued that due to rules being non-restrictive and you being able to abdicate your particular way meant you were playing by the rules. In short that issue is as I stated "The issue is using the idea of DM abdication as proof that you are doing something by the rules."

This is an issue you've created by misunderstanding my argument, and despite my efforts to clarify my meaning, you've persisted in your misconception and are even claiming I made a point I haven't. If your intention isn't to misrepresent me, then I would suggest reconsidering what it is you think I'm saying when I tell you it isn't what I said.

FrogReaver said:
A level 4 Fighter player may declare he attacks the ogre 4 times with his greatsword. The rules restrict the mechanical resolution of that declaration to a single attack and damage roll on this particular turn (barring the extra attack feature).

That doesn't restrict the player's action-declaration, though. It just requires his/her action-declaration to be resolved over the course of four rounds and that the ogre will be allowed to attack in return.

FrogReaver said:
So you believe the condition for the bonus action shove hasn't been met until you have taken the attack action on your turn. That's a good start. At least we agree there.

So you also believe you can't check whether you took the attack action on your turn until 1 of 3 things happen
1) you take the attack action
2) you take another action
3) your turn ends

I agree here as well. You even go on to say that ONCE the condition has been met that qualifies you to use the bonus action shove any time during the same turn. I agree there as well.

No, you don't. If I understand your position correctly, you believe it qualifies you to use your bonus action only in the part of your turn that comes after the condition has been met. I take the rule on bonus actions seriously when it says, "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified," and I don't accept the argument that the Shield Master shove's timing is specified.

FrogReaver said:
What I don't get is how you are saying "ONCE the condition has been met" and then insist on being able to "time travel" back to a point before you actually met the condition and then claim that because you actually met the condition in the pre time travel timeline that you now have also met the condition in the post time traveled timeline even though you've still not met the condition in this post time travel timeline yet. How does your interpretation not essentially boil down to something like this?

Because there's no time traveling. Whether I take the Attack action on my turn or not is an objective truth. If I do, I have a bonus action to use.

FrogReaver said:
@Hriston

In my games a turn is treated as a sequential series of events. Is it not treated as such in your game?

It is. The fictional events that happen in a character's turn happen in a sequence.

FrogReaver said:
If it's not I could maybe see how your position makes sense?

I doubt you're trying to see how it makes sense.

Greenstone.Walker · Feb 25, 2019

Arial Black said:
"IF you take the Law course at Harvard, you may take a room in the Law dormitory".

Does anyone understand that as meaning you must finish the course before you are allowed to take a room in that dormitory? Or is it conditional in the sense that you can only take the room if you also take the Law course?

The second option would be phrased here as "While you take the Law course, you may take a room."

Asgorath · Feb 25, 2019

Hriston said:
I don't accept the argument that the Shield Master shove's timing is specified.

So when the lead rules designer says that "if X, then Y" has special meaning within the rules of the game, and that Shield Master is an example of such a trigger, he's just wrong? Or is it because the PHB wording of Shield Master doesn't specifically contain the word "then" that he's wrong? Or that when he's been telling everyone on many different platforms that the intent of the feat is the shove happens after the Attack action, and that the feat's bonus action is intended to be a finishing move, he's just wrong? Do you just flat-out ignore the entire Sage Advice compendium, or just the question about Shield Master?

Arial Black · Feb 26, 2019

5ekyu said:
"With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack." No room there for "signing up to make an attack later."

I agree....

....until you get Extra Attack. As soon as you have Extra Attack, we both agree that executing that first attack really does effectively sign you up for making an attack later.

I have no disagreement that you do not have to finish all the attacks, but you do need to take one... or you haven't "taken the action."

And again, there is no requirement in the wording of SM that you must take the Attack action and only then get the bonus action shield shove.

The only written timing requirement is that the Attack action and bonus action shield shove take place on your turn.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

HomegrownHydra

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HomegrownHydra

Adventurer

Asgorath

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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)

Greenstone.Walker

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Asgorath

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Arial Black

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