Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
And if the attack action is made up of N discrete elements then it must have a duration...

In other words changing your claim to the attack action being made up of N discrete elements logically implies that it has a duration which contradicts your original premise that actions have no duration.

As I've said, your turn is made up of discrete elements in an ordered list. Duration has no relevance. There's an explicit rule that says your Attack action can be split by movement. There are also bonus actions that are triggered by a single attack in the Attack action. Why do you insist on applying a duration to any of this? It simply has no bearing on the order of the elements in your turn.

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Asgorath said:
As I've said, your turn is made up of discrete elements in an ordered list. Duration has no relevance. There's an explicit rule that says your Attack action can be split by movement. There are also bonus actions that are triggered by a single attack in the Attack action. Why do you insist on applying a duration to any of this? It simply has no bearing on the order of the elements in your turn.

So your dropping your claim about the attack action having no duration and changing it to duration doesn't matter. I wish you would make up your mind. I'm getting tired of fighting against an opinion that's more amoprhpous than an ooze.

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
So your dropping your claim about the attack action having no duration and changing it to duration doesn't matter. I wish you would make up your mind. I'm getting tired of fighting against an opinion that's more amoprhpous than an ooze.

I thought I was quite clear in my previous post. I was objecting to the notion that actions last as long as their effects, as this makes no sense for the Dodge and Disengage actions. I think I've explained in a large amount of detail why I think that actions simply have no implicit duration, or why duration even matters here. Please show me the text in the PHB that talks about action duration, and I'd be happy to discuss further. Otherwise, I'm sticking with my interpretation that your turn is simply made up of a strictly ordered list of discrete elements, as this avoids all problems of action duration, nested actions, concurrent actions, Schrodinger's Shove and so on.

As I said yesterday, I've given up trying to convince all the folks who think you can Shield Master shove before attacking. You're all very clearly set in your ways in respect to that feat. I just think it's completely nonsensical, but we can agree to disagree.

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Asgorath said:
I thought I was quite clear in my previous post. I was objecting to the notion that actions last as long as their effects, as this makes no sense for the Dodge and Disengage actions. I think I've explained in a large amount of detail why I think that actions simply have no implicit duration, or why duration even matters here. Please show me the text in the PHB that talks about action duration, and I'd be happy to discuss further. Otherwise, I'm sticking with my interpretation that your turn is simply made up of a strictly ordered list of discrete elements, as this avoids all problems of action duration, nested actions, concurrent actions, Schrodinger's Shove and so on.

Let me make the case to you for why action duration is important. The movement rules in the PHB only allow you to move before or after an action. There is one exception for the attack action. If we can't answer the question of how long certain actions like disengage last then we can't say when we can move again after attempting to take that action. So whether the PHB talks about duration, it's still an important concept when it comes to understanding the rules.

To prove this I want to ask you, when you disengage, can you move again before the end of your turn? If yes, then whether or not you want to admit it, you have a belief about the duration of the disengage action, that belief being it's duration doesn't last till the end of your turn (because you know that if it does then by RAW you wouldn't be able to move after taking the action).

As I said yesterday, I've given up trying to convince all the folks who think you can Shield Master shove before attacking. You're all very clearly set in your ways in respect to that feat. I just think it's completely nonsensical, but we can agree to disagree.

In case you missed the memo, I just recently changed to this position.

DND_Reborn · Mar 2, 2019

Asgorath said:
I thought I was quite clear in my previous post. I was objecting to the notion that actions last as long as their effects, as this makes no sense for the Dodge and Disengage actions. I think I've explained in a large amount of detail why I think that actions simply have no implicit duration, or why duration even matters here. Please show me the text in the PHB that talks about action duration, and I'd be happy to discuss further. Otherwise, I'm sticking with my interpretation that your turn is simply made up of a strictly ordered list of discrete elements, as this avoids all problems of action duration, nested actions, concurrent actions, Schrodinger's Shove and so on.

As I said yesterday, I've given up trying to convince all the folks who think you can Shield Master shove before attacking. You're all very clearly set in your ways in respect to that feat. I just think it's completely nonsensical, but we can agree to disagree.

While the word duration isn't used, Dodge clearly has a duration: 6 seconds. Once you take in on your turn, it lasts until the start of your next turn. Assuming one uses the standard initiative rules (i.e. roll once and repeat), you are "dodging" for the entire 6 seconds that makes up the round. So, hopefully the idea that you are dodging the entire time (whether you are moving during that time or not) does, in fact, make sense. You do not dodge only once. Now, the effects (attacks made against you at disadvantage and Dex saves with advantage) are discrete as those effect occur at the moment the triggering action takes place (the enemy's attack, the spell completing, etc.).

Additionally, while I agree SA made it quite clear you must actually attack (not just declaring, but making an attack roll to hit a target) before employing the bonus action of Shield Master (I don't personally agree with this, but that is my view, not the rules), there is nothing specifying the timing beyond that requirement. Since bonus actions can be taken as soon as their requirements are met, it is a perfectly valid interpretation that a Shield Master character with Extra Attack could attack, shove, and then attack again. Adding movement to the mix, your character could: attack, move, shove, attack, move if speed remains.

If none of this agrees to you, then fine: agree to disagree.

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Let me make the case to you for why action duration is important. The movement rules in the PHB only allow you to move before or after an action. There is one exception for the attack action. If we can't answer the question of how long certain actions like disengage last then we can't say when we can move again after attempting to take that action. So whether the PHB talks about duration, it's still an important concept when it comes to understanding the rules.

To prove this I want to ask you, when you disengage, can you move again before the end of your turn? If yes, then whether or not you want to admit it, you have a belief about the duration of the disengage action, that belief being it's duration doesn't last till the end of your turn (because you know that if it does then by RAW you wouldn't be able to move after taking the action).

As I've said, the rules say you can insert movement into the Attack action. That might give you an ordered list of this for your turn:

1) Move
2) Attack
3) Move
4) Attack
5) Move

Duration of an action has no bearing on the effect of that action. Let's say that when you take the Disengage action, your DM hands you a card that says "your movement doesn't provoke OAs". They take it back at the end of your turn.

1) Move
2) Disengage
3) Move (this does not provoke OAs)

This mirrors what happens when you cast the Shield spell, where the DM hands you a card that says "you get +5 to AC" which they take back at the start of your next turn. Similarly, the DM gives you a card that says "attacks against you have disadvantage" for the Dodge action, which they take back at the start of your next turn.

Duration of the effect is important. Duration of the element that triggered said effect is irrelevant, in my opinion. You process the element, and you move on to process the next element in the list. The only thing that matters is the order.

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Asgorath said:
As I've said, the rules say you can insert movement into the Attack action. That might give you an ordered list of this for your turn:

1) Move
2) Attack
3) Move
4) Attack
5) Move

Duration of an action has no bearing on the effect of that action. Let's say that when you take the Disengage action, your DM hands you a card that says "your movement doesn't provoke OAs". They take it back at the end of your turn.

1) Move
2) Disengage
3) Move (this does not provoke OAs)

This mirrors what happens when you cast the Shield spell, where the DM hands you a card that says "you get +5 to AC" which they take back at the start of your next turn. Similarly, the DM gives you a card that says "attacks against you have disadvantage" for the Dodge action, which they take back at the start of your next turn.

Duration of the effect is important. Duration of the element that triggered said effect is irrelevant, in my opinion. You process the element, and you move on to process the next element in the list. The only thing that matters is the order.

Obviously for disengage the duration of the effect it provides lasts until the end of your turn. My question isn't about the effect it provides. My question is can you move after taking the disengage action. If you answer yes then you believe as I do that the disengage action doesn't last until the end of your turn (because you know that if it did then you wouldn't be able to move until after that turn was over).

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Obviously for disengage the duration of the effect it provides lasts until the end of your turn. My question isn't about the effect it provides. My question is can you move after taking the disengage action. If you answer yes then you believe as I do that the disengage action doesn't last until the end of your turn (because you know that if it did then you wouldn't be able to move until after that turn was over).

I absolutely agree with you, because the Disengage action in and of itself has no concept of duration. The effect of that action lasts until the end of your turn, which means any movement elements in the ordered list that is your turn after the Disengage element do not provoke OAs.

FrogReaver · Mar 2, 2019

Asgorath said:
I absolutely agree with you, because the Disengage action in and of itself has no concept of duration. The effect of that action lasts until the end of your turn, which means any movement elements in the ordered list that is your turn after the Disengage element do not provoke OAs.

How about answering my question. Can you move after taking the disengage action?

Asgorath · Mar 2, 2019

FrogReaver said:
How about answering my question. Can you move after taking the disengage action?

I answered this 2 posts ago.

1) Move
2) Disengage
3) Move (this does not provoke OAs)

Yes, you can move after you Disengage. The effect of that action lasts for the duration, which in this case is the end of your turn.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

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