Official DnD, D20, and OGL - who are you?

[Sayburr]

Hmmmm, not really sure where I would fit into this question. I suppose I would have to say Official only, but most of the books I have bought lately have been by KenzerCo for Kalamar. So, while official D&D they are not WOTC books.

 

[3catcircus]

Wildly radical, myself.

Anything in the three core books/SRD is "acceptable." Magic of Faerun is acceptable in part. All other WotC products to this point (though UA may become the notable exception) are "Right Out" - because everything in them has, more or less, been done better (IMO) by 3rd party publishers!

I probably use more "3rd party" material by a 5:1 margin than WotC material.

Of course, UA appears to have quite a bit of good stuff in it, so I may allow it in as well, which will cut down the 5:1 margin some.

Specific items I think have been truly inspired/brilliant strokes from 3rd-party publishers:

1.) Second World Simulations' Master of Arms - The way "combination moves" are handled.

2.) Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed - The spell preparation technique - spontaneous casting like a sorcerer, but your "known spells" can be shifted daily.

3.) Mongoose's Quintessential Fighter (revision) and Encyclopedia Arcane: Elementalism - "Demilevels" - rather than full-fledged character classes, you have a 5-level "Semiclass" for which XP is directly expended to gain extra special abilities (call them "Fighting Styles" in QF, "Circles" in EA:E). This was independently developed by several other publishers nearly simultaneously, but IIRC, Mongoose published them first.

4.) FFG's Spells & Spellcraft - Adding special abilities to your familiar (also appears in their $4.95 Masterwork Collection). A MUST for anyone who has a familiar

5.) FFG's Path of... Series - Legendary Classes and the associated Legendary Abilities (one ability per level, the ability's "power" is tied to the level when you originally take it)

6.) Thunderhead/Mystic Eye Games - "Adjustment Boxes" to adjust/scale encounters to handle a party of a different makeup than Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Rogue.

7.) Malhavoc Press' Book of Eldritch Might - Not for the content, per se, but for basically creating the electronic publishing industry (which has had some absolute gems in its own right).

8.) Sword & Sorcery Studios' Relics & Rituals - Rules for Ritual Magic

9.) Green Ronin Studios' Hammer & Helm - First book of which I know that introduced the concept of Bloodlines/Feats that grant special powers.

10.) FFG's Mythic Races - First book of which I know that included something that very much resembles "ECL adjustments" as we know them today.

I'm not saying every one of these products is universally fantastic in its own right, but I think these 10 ideas I noted above were gigantic steps forward for RPGs and certainly improvements on aspects of the "Core" d20 system. These all get mention for doing things "first" or simply "better." To limit oneself to WotC only really limits your creative avenues, as many of the ideas in Unearthed Arcana are essentially derived from/inspired by the above works.

Everyone else will have their own favorite 3rd-party bits, I'm sure, but I would suggest that you show these 10 "bits" (well, 9, I guess... #7 is a bit dodgy as "rules" go). Compare them to the rules (or lack thereof) for similar things from WotC (note publication dates where these are "Firsts" instead of "Betters"). If that doesn't convince someone that WotC is not, cannot, and should not be the "End All Be All" of game design companies, well, there's really not much more you can do.

--The Sigil

Hmm - lemme see here:

1. "Combination Moves" sounds too much like one of those Fighting Video Games like Tekken.

2. Arcana Unearthed - very cool, but I wouldn't bill it as D&D, per se - rather, a completely separate Fantasy RPG that I could use as an "alternate universe" to send my PCs to from time to time.

3. Quintessential [Anything] - dunno - seems like overkill.

4. Adding abilities to your familiar - can already be done in stock D&D.

5. The "Daily Power" reminds me of Baldur's Gate CRPG.

6. While Adjustment Boxes sound cool on its face, what about parties that are already well-balanced, even if not the stock Fighter-Cleric-Rogue-Wizard combination, such as Paladin-Druid-Bard-Sorceror?

I dunno - all in all, I think that most of the 3rd-party offerings are either too much in the way of power-gaming, or are needlessly extra complexity. I think that you may be better off adopting certain add-ons if you don't intend to run a "D&D campaign" per se.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I'm wary of all stuff, unofficial or not.

Word.

 

[Ghostwind]

This is directed more at the "purists" who deem anything other than Wotc material as "inferior". Do you realize that some of the best third party publishers have people who held significant positions with the Wotc organization?

*Green Ronin - Run by Chris Pramas (formerly in charge of the Miniatures Division when Chainmail was still alive and kicking) and who has published books by other Wotc notables like Charles Ryan, Jesse Decker, and Erik Mona.
*Bastion Press - Run by Jim Butler (former Brand Manager for TSR/Wotc) with Darrin Drader (who is doing more and more work for Wotc - such as the Book of Exalted Deeds) serving as a member of the development team.
*The Game Mechanics - Run by Stan! (former Senior Editor), JD Wiker (Lead Developer in R&D), and Rich Redman (who currently works for Wotc), publishers of d20 Modern support material.
*Malhavoc Press - Monte Cook ('nuff said).

All of these companies have demonstrated the ability to churn out quality material without having the assets of the Wotc organization at their disposal. They certainly should earn at least a serious glance the next time you visit your FLGS. You might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Psion]

Hmm - lemme see here:

1. "Combination Moves" sounds too much like one of those Fighting Video Games like Tekken.

Your point is? I can't drop Tekken styles into my game... at least without significant work.

Are you just trying to be a heckler? Or do you have some legitimate refutations?

4. Adding abilities to your familiar - can already be done in stock D&D.

How?

6. While Adjustment Boxes sound cool on its face, what about parties that are already well-balanced, even if not the stock Fighter-Cleric-Rogue-Wizard combination, such as Paladin-Druid-Bard-Sorceror?

You can't make a reasonable judgement on whether this is a trap-oriented group (it doesn't look like) or whatever?

I dunno - all in all, I think that most of the 3rd-party offerings are either too much in the way of power-gaming, or are needlessly extra complexity.

Not necessarily. Some products do add complexity (the hotly contested Lords of the Night: Liches comes to mind), others are basically the same sort of material that you see WotC put out. Some are singificantly stripped down compared to WotC books (Heroes of High Favor comes to mind.) Whatever you are looking for, I think you can find it out there.

I think that you may be better off adopting certain add-ons if you don't intend to run a "D&D campaign" per se.

What are you trying to say here?

 

[DaveMage]

I would love to hear others comments on this. Are you a conservative "Official DnD" purist? Are you a Liberal "D20/OGL" radical? Or are you somewhere in between?

Who are you, what are you? and Why?

I think some people may approach 3rd party products with skepticism beacuse of the way 3rd party products used to be. Before d20/OGL, you'd see 3rd party people advertise things such as "compatible with any fantasy role-playing game". Then, when you opened it up, you'd find that in order to use it with a D&D game, it required a lot of work. And then, you'd always wondered if the rules would really work in D&D.

I have personally used things from Bastion Press, Sword & Sorcery Studios, Green Ronin, AEG, and Necromancer Games in my games, and I'm happy to do so when they fit my campaign.

However, the thing about WotC products is that I feel much more comfortable with them with regard to playability "out of the box". I don't worry about having to playtest them. I have yet to run across anything in a WotC product that breaks my game. (Some rules slant the power curve a bit, but nothing has made the game less fun.)

Also, if folks purchased d20 products right after 3.0 came out, and saw products like the original Creature Collection, which was not in the exact same format as the MM, they might be skeptical with regards to compatibility. (Not to mention that those who only bought some early Fast Forward products might have sworn off 3rd-party products altogether.)

Clearly, 3rd parties have improved dramatically since the early days, but sometimes getting burned early will keep people away for good.

 

[3catcircus]

Your point is? I can't drop Tekken styles into my game... at least without significant work.

Are you just trying to be a heckler? Or do you have some legitimate refutations?



How?



You can't make a reasonable judgement on whether this is a trap-oriented group (it doesn't look like) or whatever?



Not necessarily. Some products do add complexity (the hotly contested Lords of the Night: Liches comes to mind), others are basically the same sort of material that you see WotC put out. Some are singificantly stripped down compared to WotC books (Heroes of High Favor comes to mind.) Whatever you are looking for, I think you can find it out there.



What are you trying to say here?

My point about Tekken moves is that the referenced add-on, seems, to me, to make the game less rpg-oriented and more like a fighting video game - less thinking, more twitch.

You can give your familiar special abilities (or get a special familiar), with the Imroved Familar Feat, Undead Familiar Spell, Imbue With Spell Ability Spell, etc.

I wasn't making a judgement on whether the party was trap-oriented or not - I was making a judgement on the fact that standard D&D mechanics for 3.x were written for combat using a party of 4 people of the 4 basic classes of Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue.

I agree that some products are minimalist, and others are basically the same as WOTC products. The point is - for every prestige class in Complete Warrior, for example, an equal number of similar or almost identical prestige classes are available in 3rd-party product. It leaves the DM and players in a bit of a quandary if they have to make a decision of one or the other. It also makes level advancement become much more involved than it should be and places more emphasis on grooming the character stats than it does on roleplaying during the game.

Ultimately - I was making the point that for every 3rd-party product produced, the more choices there are, but at the same time, that amount of additional information can make someone feel overwhelmed.

 

[Psion]

My point about Tekken moves is that the referenced add-on, seems, to me, to make the game less rpg-oriented and more like a fighting video game - less thinking, more twitch.

Now waitaminnit. We aren't talking about "stupid joystick tricks" here. We are talking about a supplement that adds more detail to combat that just saying "you hit/roll damage" ad naseum. The latter sounds much more to me like "less thinking." Providing maneuvers that are advantageous in certain situations, and having the player strive to expoit them is, if anything, more thinking, not to mention, another way you can differentiate your character from being just another fighter.

It strikes me that you are obviously attacking this book sight unseen, which in my book is "not cool."

Do you subscribe to the Dragon? Did you read the article about Dragon Templates in Dragon #313? That article is by the same author. Read it and tell me that you think that article is coming from some shallow powergamer.

You can give your familiar special abilities (or get a special familiar), with the Imroved Familar Feat, Undead Familiar Spell, Imbue With Spell Ability Spell, etc.

Not the same thing. That's giving you a different familiar (except the spell, with is sort of limited). Some players prefer something a little more subtle than having a fire elemental or psuedodragon familiar.

I agree that some products are minimalist, and others are basically the same as WOTC products. The point is - for every prestige class in Complete Warrior, for example, an equal number of similar or almost identical prestige classes are available in 3rd-party product. It leaves the DM and players in a bit of a quandary if they have to make a decision of one or the other. It also makes level advancement become much more involved than it should be and places more emphasis on grooming the character stats than it does on roleplaying during the game.

Ultimately - I was making the point that for every 3rd-party product produced, the more choices there are, but at the same time, that amount of additional information can make someone feel overwhelmed.

As the saying goes, don't try to eat the whole cow... just take the cuts you need.

 

[Woas]

I picked up a d20/OGL book the other day…

…I felt dirty and put it back. Then I picked up a WotC book and brought it to the check out without even looking at what the title was. I then went home and wrote Wizards a letter. It said,

Dear Wizards,

I need to buy more of your books. Please make a 4th edition as soon as possable so that I may buy it. Thank you.






Ok, I'm not THAT bad. But I must admit, I own only WotC books. And not many at that (only 5). I'm not opposed to d20 or OGL stuff. Its just that A) I'm a casual gamer/DM and a nice little game of core D&D is fine with me. I don't need to get all crazy and fancy. B) I like to describe myself as frugal... but who am I kidding? I'm extremly cheap when it comes to buying enterianment goods for myself. I mean, when I bought my Playstation 2, I played my only game, Grand Theft Auto for almost 7 months before I thought about putting down another $50 for another game. My budget for books is like $2... in change even. I'm amazed I even spent the money for the 3 core books.

 

[Desdichado]

Ok, I'm not THAT bad. But I must admit, I own only WotC books. And not many at that (only 5). I'm not opposed to d20 or OGL stuff. Its just that A) I'm a casual gamer/DM and a nice little game of core D&D is fine with me. I don't need to get all crazy and fancy. B) I like to describe myself as frugal... but who am I kidding? I'm extremly cheap when it comes to buying enterianment goods for myself. I mean, when I bought my Playstation 2, I played my only game, Grand Theft Auto for almost 7 months before I thought about putting down another $50 for another game. My budget for books is like $2... in change even. I'm amazed I even spent the money for the 3 core books.

Yeah, but that's not at all the same as saying "I only buy WotC books because I think only WotC books are any good."