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Officially the weirdest thing I have ever read

Turanil said:
I cannot quote a part of the text because of Enworld's no-political comments policy. However, I must say that I am truly amazed that a guy can write that sort of defaming stuff on three US president and not be arrested... :confused:

WHOOO! Go, First Amendment, GO!
 

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DungeonmasterCal said:
WHOOO! Go, First Amendment, GO!
Does the first amendment include the right to defame someone with horrid crimes? I believed it only had to do with the right to express an opinion. I mean, if I say that you are a thief who stole money from my grandmother, this is not an opinion but an accusation. But well, I know that now I am treading on the political subject, so I end it there.
 


Turanil said:
Does the first amendment include the right to defame someone with horrid crimes? I believed it only had to do with the right to express an opinion. I mean, if I say that you are a thief who stole money from my grandmother, this is not an opinion but an accusation. But well, I know that now I am treading on the political subject, so I end it there.
Obligatory IANAL, but some quick checks of references will be helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel#United_States_law
http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1153&bold=||||
http://ipcenter.bna.com/pic2/ip.nsf/id/BNAP-5JBMPL?OpenDocument

According to these sources:
In the US, you generally have to prove one of three things to win a libel case:
1. People believed what was said about you and you lost money/business over this (this doesn't apply for public figures and officials).
2. The person you are accusing of libel must have acted with malice (i.e. they had to have lied or spread the information for malicious purposes. Try to sue a conspiracy theorist for this one and they'll swear up and down it's true and they're just spreading the truth, it'll turn the courtroom into a circus).
3. The person accused of libel didn't know if the information was true or false, but acted with "reckless negligence" about their accuracy of their information.

This all means that it's hard for a public figure to sue for libel, even when being accused of atrocities, as long as the accuser sincerely believes what they are saying. Also, if a statement is clearly labeled as an opinion instead of fact, it's protected even if it's blatantly and provably untrue.

US laws on Libel are quite hard on the plaintiff compared to many other countries because of the First Amendment Right to Freedom of Speech. Traditionally, the First Amendment is a very broad protection and the government must justify why it can't be said, instead of you justifying why it can be said. A famous example of going too far is "yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater", a statement meant just to cause a panic and that could get people hurt. If its believed to be truthful (even if it isn't) it's pretty sacrosanct.

(PS: I tried to keep this factual and purely oriented to basic civics without going into politics, in case it is pushing the line, like the original poster I'll just leave this to stand on its own).
 

Politicians in the US tend to develop a thick skin, anyway. (At least in public)

Sometime this year I think the SF channel actually had a movie on this premise. I didn't watch it for more than 5 minutes, but basically the premise was that the dinosaurs didn't die off, they just evolved into shapeshifting humanoid reptiles. Almost like a vampire movie, except they were lizards instead of vampires. Had one of the Baldwins in it.

Anonymous Rex it was called.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397312/
 

I must say that I am truly amazed that a guy can write that sort of defaming stuff on three US president and not be arrested...

I'm just impressed by implication that three US presidents all molested the same person. Does the secret service set up these "rendez-vous" for them? Are all presidents somehow obligated to participate?:
"Excuse me Mr. President"
"What is it?"
"It's time sir."
"What? Oh. Do I have to? I'm kind of not in the mood right now."
"I'm sorry sir; its a tradition of your office."
"I'd rather not if its all the same."
"Sir, don't make me make you."
"Okay Okay! Fine. I hope this won't take long. Bring her in."

Sometime this year I think the SF channel actually had a movie on this premise. I didn't watch it for more than 5 minutes, but basically the premise was that the dinosaurs didn't die off, they just evolved into shapeshifting humanoid reptiles. Almost like a vampire movie, except they were lizards instead of vampires. Had one of the Baldwins in it.

If a Baldwin is involved, it must be true. :p
 
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Icke is an interesting read. His books have some well researched theories and lots of good information on bloodlines and the web of connections among people in power. Unfortunately his reptile theories get the most attention.

I guess there are a couple ways you could look at this (not limited to):

Take it all for face value. This is probably the most difficult for the majority of people to accept. Although I won't deny the interesting state of mind that can develop as a result.

Interpret reptiles as a metaphor for cold, selfish, out of control drive by inner desires. This makes sense (especially in reference to the idea of an inner 'reptilian brain') and while some proponents of a reptilian theory construct it this way, Icke seems to continually point towards a more physical element.

Reptilian theory is purposefully constructed and planted as a major topic in his books as a form of self defense that protects the meaty information available from him. Basically a form of disinformation that keeps him looking harmless.

I don't really know though.
 

merztrumpet said:
Icke is an interesting read. His books have some well researched theories and lots of good information on bloodlines and the web of connections among people in power. Unfortunately his reptile theories get the most attention.

I guess there are a couple ways you could look at this (not limited to):

Take it all for face value. This is probably the most difficult for the majority of people to accept. Although I won't deny the interesting state of mind that can develop as a result.

Interpret reptiles as a metaphor for cold, selfish, out of control drive by inner desires. This makes sense (especially in reference to the idea of an inner 'reptilian brain') and while some proponents of a reptilian theory construct it this way, Icke seems to continually point towards a more physical element.

Reptilian theory is purposefully constructed and planted as a major topic in his books as a form of self defense that protects the meaty information available from him. Basically a form of disinformation that keeps him looking harmless.

I don't really know though.
This is, of course, precisely how such theories as Icke's continue to prosper in the information age. Since no person's motives or statements can be taken at face value, they are assigned a secret meaning (and accordingly lesser or greater value) by the reader (or viewer, or whatever), and then rearranged and conflated into patterns that reveal Larger Meaning.

It's a Rorschach test writ large - the human mind seeks patterns that it finds desirable or at least acceptable. We dismiss the presence of reptilian humanoids living among us (though that's certainly not universal) and sieze upon the idea of a secret bloodline running through the centuries, dominating the halls of power all over the world. Once you start down this path, there's really no reason to stop - if the "official" history of the world is a lie perpetrated by Them (the greedy, but not necessarily literally reptillian, social elite), then every "official" statement can be interpreted as evidence of "They're" control.

Do people do exactly the above all the time? Absolutely. Read a book by Jim Marrs for some of the best written examples of kookie secret history and conspiracy theory. Dan Brown has made a populist phenomenon of a slightly more mundane version (no ultraterrestrial reptoids, but hey - give him time) with books like Angels and Demons and the Da Vinci Code, assigning bizarre motives to any number of historical figures (only some of which, to his credit, directly contradict the established historical record). Even something like the above that's explicitly fiction is taken as the gospel (ha! You'll see the irony if you've read the Brown's books) truth by many readers.

Now, I glean more than my fair share of entertainment from books like Marrs', Icke's, and even Brown's...but I don't sweat the "truths" that any of them reveal. We like to know secrets, and we like to see patterns. If you accept those truisms, nearly every conspiracy and secret history you've ever heard of can be dismissed as a flight of fancy.

And Oswald did kill Kennedy all by himself.

Or maybe it was reptoids?
 

trancejeremy said:
Sometime this year I think the SF channel actually had a movie on this premise. I didn't watch it for more than 5 minutes <...>
Ah! Can I interpret this as a statement about the overall (disastrous) quality of this movie? :D
 


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