OGC equivalent to Thri-kreen? Green martians!

[Umbran]

Quite true, but to me, those one of continuity glitches are not seminal aspects of the characters (or, in this case, races) which need to make their way to game mechanics. As a one off description of newborns, if it never shows up again, or at all in mature members of the species, it doesn't seem like a characteristic crying out to be included in the racial abilities.

Agreed. That's why I asked the question in the first place. Burroughs is not light on description, but I don't recall this ever being a major point. Removing it may make the resulting critter design easier.

 

[Cleon]

If the only time we see the use of the extra arms as legs is as newly hatched babies, it doesn’t seem they gain any great advantage from using the "intermediary limbs" as a second pair of legs. Why do they never take advantage of this as adults? Maybe they derive no game-mechanical benefits for doing so. Maybe they lose some flexibility in growth to adulthood and can’t effectively use their middle limbs as a second set of legs. Maybe it just takes too long to switch modes as joints twist and get stiff from one configuration. Regardless, it doesn’t seem four legged movement is a hallmark of the race. Maybe some unusual Green Men can still switch between orientations, taking "Semi-Quadruped" as a feat, but if that is its only appearance in the source material, it hardly seems necessary as a racial trait.

When John Carter sees the newly hatched Green Martians he thinks they have six legs, suggesting the babies are crawling on all sixes. He later learns they have "two legs and two arms, with an intermediary pair of limbs which could be used at will either as arms or legs". While it's possible to interpret this as saying only infants have these "intermediary limbs", a couple of passages later in the book indicate adult Green Martians have them as well.

Firstly, later on in A Princess of Mars, John Carter has an encounter with White Apes, who are described as follows:

The creatures were about ten or fifteen feet tall, standing erect, and had, like the green Martians, an intermediary set of arms or legs, midway between their upper and lower limbs.​

If only infant Green Martians could walk on all fours, wouldn't the above passage use "like the baby green Martians" or something similar? It'd be like describing an animal as "crawling on four limbs, like a human" because human babies move on all fours.

The clincher is this description of Green Martians in A Fighting Man of Mars:

The terrible green warriors of Barsoom are the hereditary enemies of all the other races of this martial planet. They are of heroic size and in addition to being equipped with two legs and two arms apiece, they have an intermediary pair of limbs, which may be used at will either as arms or legs.​

In conclusion, Green Martians move on all six of their limbs when born, then learn to stand on two or four limbs as they mature, much like a human baby crawls before it walks.

However, the question asked was can Green Martians run on all fours? As I said in my previous post, I don't remember them ever being described doing so. A search of the books only found a reference to White Apes running on all fours but I couldn't find and mention of Green Martians running on a particular number of legs.

In The Gods of Mars, the second book in the series. John Carter and Tars Tarkas are fighting a bunch of Plant Men. Hundreds more Plant Men appear in the distance, together with:

some strange new monsters which ran with great swiftness, now erect and now upon all fours.​

These creatures turn out to be White Apes.

Now, at last, I saw the nature of the other monsters who had come with the plant men in response to the weird calling of the man upon the cliff's face. They were that most dreaded of Martian creatures—great white apes of Barsoom.​

In combination, that's a clear statement that White Apes can run "upon all fours". The The Gods of Mars describes the White Apes' limb arrangement as follows:

They stand fifteen feet in height and walk erect upon their hind feet. Like the green Martians, they have an intermediary set of arms midway between their upper and lower limbs.​

The wording is very similar to the description of White Ape limbs in A Princess of Mars, except it describes the intermediary limbs as "arms" instead of "arms or legs". However, since The Gods of Mars has already described White Apes running on all fours it seems pretty obvious the "intermediary arms" can also serve as legs.

Since Green Martians have the same limb arrangement as White Apes and can also use their "intermediary limbs" as legs, it seems plausible they might be able to run on all fours too.

 

[N'raac]

To me, it seems that, if the above is as close as we get to any indication Green Martians can, or do, run in a four-limbed arrangement, over eleven books, then there is no great advantage achieved by the Green Martians by doing so. Is there ever an indication, for example, of a Green Martian being able to move faster than John Carter by adopting that stance? If not, why would it translate into a 10' movement bonus for the race as a whole by using the intermediary limbs in this manner? For that matter, is there any indication that Green Martians enjoy a reach advantage over John Carter by virtue of their superior size? If not, then why do they get Reach?

If the intent is to recreate the race as found in the novels, a substantial STR advantage over humans, four legged running and Reach seem unsupported by the source material. For that matter, are they even "Large"? Did John Carter, a Medium human, experience difficulty using their weaponry? If not, it seems the Martians used Medium weaponry like John was used to. If so, it supports Large size. There's certainly precedent for a race that suffers drawbacks of a different size category without receiving the benefits.

Perhaps the object is not to translate the Green Martian as appearing in Burroughs' fiction to the game as accurately as possible, but to create a large, four armed race especially suited to a melee combat role, in which case the race as presented seems customized to fill such a role. But in that case, let's recognize that these are intended as such, based loosely on the Burroughs material.

 

[Cleon]

While I would agree that, with none of the benefits of quadruped status other than the movement rate change, this is worth the same 1 RP, I question two things:

(a) Is it logical that the extra legs don't make them harder to trip, push back, etc.?

(b) If we're OK with the logic, why not just give them the Fast trait, defined as using the intermediary limbs as extra legs, note that they cannot use Reach or use items held by those limbs while in transit, and be done with it?

Hold on a moment. Is there any evidence that Green Martians could move significantly faster than Red Martians?

The books describe Green Martians as being substantially stronger than Red Martians, but I couldn't find any statement that they're faster on foot.

For all we know using an extra pair of legs might just make them more stable.

 

[N'raac]

To me, it seems that, if the above is as close as we get to any indication Green Martians can, or do, run in a four-limbed arrangement, over eleven books, then there is no great advantage achieved by the Green Martians by doing so. Is there ever an indication, for example, of a Green Martian being able to move faster than John Carter by adopting that stance? If not, why would it translate into a 10' movement bonus for the race as a whole by using the intermediary limbs in this manner?

Hold on a moment. Is there any evidence that Green Martians could move significantly faster than Red Martians?

The books describe Green Martians as being substantially stronger than Red Martians, but I couldn't find any statement that they're faster on foot.

For all we know using an extra pair of legs might just make them more stable.

From what I'm seeing, there is no indication that using these limbs as an extra pair of legs providing them with any advantage whatsoever. With what the books provide, it seems as likely as anything else that the ability to use these extra limbs as a second set of legs is a vestigial trait providing no advantage to the Green Martian.

What racial abilities should we give humans for having an appendix?

 

[Cleon]

To me, it seems that, if the above is as close as we get to any indication Green Martians can, or do, run in a four-limbed arrangement, over eleven books, then there is no great advantage achieved by the Green Martians by doing so. Is there ever an indication, for example, of a Green Martian being able to move faster than John Carter by adopting that stance? If not, why would it translate into a 10' movement bonus for the race as a whole by using the intermediary limbs in this manner? For that matter, is there any indication that Green Martians enjoy a reach advantage over John Carter by virtue of their superior size? If not, then why do they get Reach?

The books describe John Carter as being faster than a Green Martian. Because he's an Earthman adapted for a higher gravity than Mars, Carter can run in leaps and bounds that outpace a Green Martian on foot.

A White Ape, Thoat or other swift martian animal is likely faster than Carter, though.

There's no mention in the books of Green Martians enjoying a reach advantage over Carter, despite being up to 15 feet tall. The best comparison of a Green Martian's fighting ability to John Carter's is this passage in Llana of Gathol:

He drew his long-sword as he came toward me and I did likewise. Had there not been six of his fellows galloping up on their huge thoats I should not have worried greatly, for with a sword I am a match for any green Martian that was ever hatched. Even their great size gives them no advantage. Perhaps it handicaps them, for their movements are slow and ponderous by comparison with my earthly agility; and though they are twice my size, I am fully as strong as they. The muscles of earthly man have not contended with the force of gravity since the dawn of humanity for nothing. It has developed and hardened muscles; because every move we make is contested by gravity.​

This bit from A Princess of Mars is likely also relevant:

While the Martians are immense, their bones are very large and they are muscled only in proportion to the gravitation which they must overcome. The result is that they are infinitely less agile and less powerful, in proportion to their weight, than an Earth man, and I doubt that were one of them suddenly to be transported to Earth he could lift his own weight from the ground; in fact, I am convinced that he could not do so.​

If the intent is to recreate the race as found in the novels, a substantial STR advantage over humans, four legged running and Reach seem unsupported by the source material.

Raneth has already said he's using a Red Martian as his "standard humanoid" instead of a human.

I'm guessing he'd use some high-Strength Monstrous Racial Package for an "Earthman".

For that matter, are they even "Large"? Did John Carter, a Medium human, experience difficulty using their weaponry? If not, it seems the Martians used Medium weaponry like John was used to. If so, it supports Large size. There's certainly precedent for a race that suffers drawbacks of a different size category without receiving the benefits.

Perhaps the object is not to translate the Green Martian as appearing in Burroughs' fiction to the game as accurately as possible, but to create a large, four armed race especially suited to a melee combat role, in which case the race as presented seems customized to fill such a role. But in that case, let's recognize that these are intended as such, based loosely on the Burroughs material.

Agreed, I'd just make them Medium and handwave away the exaggerated height.

Carter uses Green Martian equipment, including weapons and saddles, without any apparent difficulty throughout the books. Similarly, Green Martians use captured Red Martian weapons without problems.

The only concession to their size differences I could find is that the Green Martian women had to adjust a Green Martian chief's harness to get it to fit Carter.

I doubt Burroughs though through the full consequences of making the Tharks so tall. There's a passage in A Princess of Mars where Tar Tarkas puts his "intermediary arm" through Carter's arm and walks along arm-in-arm.

Tars Tarkas is fifteen feet tall and he's walking arm-in-arm with a human - he must have really weird proportions for that to make any sort of sense.

 

[N'raac]

The books describe John Carter as being faster than a Green Martian. Because he's an Earthman adapted for a higher gravity than Mars, Carter can run in leaps and bounds that outpace a Green Martian on foot.

Agreed that we're back to Red Martians if they are to be used as benchmarks. That, or Green Martians should have a 20' move rate since Carter easily outpaces them.

There's no mention in the books of Green Martians enjoying a reach advantage over Carter, despite being up to 15 feet tall. The best comparison of a Green Martian's fighting ability to John Carter's is this passage in Llana of Gathol:

He drew his long-sword as he came toward me and I did likewise. Had there not been six of his fellows galloping up on their huge thoats I should not have worried greatly, for with a sword I am a match for any green Martian that was ever hatched. Even their great size gives them no advantage. Perhaps it handicaps them, for their movements are slow and ponderous by comparison with my earthly agility; and though they are twice my size, I am fully as strong as they. The muscles of earthly man have not contended with the force of gravity since the dawn of humanity for nothing. It has developed and hardened muscles; because every move we make is contested by gravity.​

This bit from A Princess of Mars is likely also relevant:

While the Martians are immense, their bones are very large and they are muscled only in proportion to the gravitation which they must overcome. The result is that they are infinitely less agile and less powerful, in proportion to their weight, than an Earth man, and I doubt that were one of them suddenly to be transported to Earth he could lift his own weight from the ground; in fact, I am convinced that he could not do so.​

Emphasis added. In addition to indicating the martians had no reach advantage, perhaps the above suggests the Green Martian should suffer a DEX penalty, rather than a CHA penalty. +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX (and no extra +2 to STR) might be closer to the mark, we well as getting them into "typical PC" race point totals. They're not long on racial traits suitable for a non-warrior career either.

Would anyone build a non-warrior of this race? Would there be warrior PC's of other races who could compete?​

Agreed, I'd just make them Medium and handwave away the exaggerated height.

Carter uses Green Martian equipment, including weapons and saddles, without any apparent difficulty throughout the books. Similarly, Green Martians use captured Red Martian weapons without problems.

The only concession to their size differences I could find is that the Green Martian women had to adjust a Green Martian chief's harness to get it to fit Carter.

And even here it gets adjusted - we can only adjust armor to fit races of the same size, I believe.

I doubt Burroughs though through the full consequences of making the Tharks so tall. There's a passage in A Princess of Mars where Tar Tarkas puts his "intermediary arm" through Carter's arm and walks along arm-in-arm.

Tars Tarkas is fifteen feet tall and he's walking arm-in-arm with a human - he must have really weird proportions for that to make any sort of sense.

That puts his intermediary arm, say, 4 - 5 feet off the ground, right? Now we need another 5' of torso and shoulder to the upper arms to reach 10' or so at the shoulder - maybe they're giraffe-like!

Sounds like we could make them 7 - 8' tall and treat them as Medium quite reasonably. A lot of the novel art seems to put them at 1.5 to 2x as tall as John Carter, so 9 - 12 feet, often with the lower arms at his head level.

 

[Cleon]

From what I'm seeing, there is no indication that using these limbs as an extra pair of legs providing them with any advantage whatsoever. With what the books provide, it seems as likely as anything else that the ability to use these extra limbs as a second set of legs is a vestigial trait providing no advantage to the Green Martian.

I haven't had a thorough check yet, but so far I haven't found any examples in the books of a Green Martian using more than one weapon at a time. In melee they normally use a "mighty long-sword" that are "long, straight, needle-like".

There's mention of them using their "spare arms" for balance and holding reins, so perhaps a racial bonus to Balance and an easier time doing some sorts of multitasking?

What racial abilities should we give humans for having an appendix?

A +2 to Fortitude saves to recover from a catastrophic loss of intestinal fauna.

 

[Cleon]

A White Ape, Thoat or other swift martian animal is likely faster than Carter, though.

Correction. In Llana of Gathol it says Carter can outrun a Thoat:

I can out-run any thoat that was ever foaled. The only trouble with me is that I am too proud to run; but, like the fellow that was too proud to fight, I sometimes have to, as in this case where the safety of others was at stake.​

 

[Cleon]

That puts his intermediary arm, say, 4 - 5 feet off the ground, right? Now we need another 5' of torso and shoulder to the upper arms to reach 10' or so at the shoulder - maybe they're giraffe-like!

Yes, I thought about that - it does say the baby's have long necks, after all - but it would look a bit ridiculous, and surely Carter would have mentioned if they had extraordinarily elongated necks?

Let's see. The books say their intermediary limbs are halfway between the arms and legs their "lower torso" and "upper torso" must be of equal height.

A tall male human is, say, 36 inches to the hip, 66 inches to the shoulder and 76 inches to the top of the head. That's a 30 inch "torso height" (66-36), so if you you add another "torso" to 66 inches you get an upper shoulder height of 96 inches or eight feet. That'd mean Tas Tarkas's "neck and head" is seven feet high!

That's assuming the legs, arms and torsos approximate a human's proportions. If Green Martian arms bent in very different ways and places to a human's they could walk along arm-in-arm without such a great size discrepancy.

Sounds like we could make them 7 - 8' tall and treat them as Medium quite reasonably. A lot of the novel art seems to put them at 1.5 to 2x as tall as John Carter, so 9 - 12 feet, often with the lower arms at his head level.

Yes, a lot of Barsoom artwork - and the film - show Green Martians ranging somewhere in the 7 foot to 10 foot range. It just looks better than having the human barely come up to the Thark's groin.