OGC Wiki (merged)

[BryonD]

But my point was that if that's OK to do to Phil (or whoever), then whoever is advocating it really has no business criticising him for not continuing to release OGC. He literally has no choice.

And I agree 100% with that.

 

[philreed]

Has any PDF publisher released a say, monster book with art by Todd Lockwood or Wayne Reynolds? Ron Spencer? Not that I'm aware of. I mentioned a monster book because monsters are generally very visual in nature. Ditto with magic weapons/equipment.

I've released several PDFs with Christopher Shy art. That would be the same Shy that _rarely_ works in the game industry these days because he makes too much money working on projects out of Hollywood.

The quality of the art has _almost_ no effect on sales. And certainly not enough of an effect to cover the costs.

 

[philreed]

And all Phil's saying (if I can put more words in his mouth) is that the recent emergence of an OGC Wiki with a respected industry figure putting momentum behind it means that he has to reassess the risks.

Go right I ahead. My words sound better if someone else puts them in my mouth.

Something I think people are overlooking is the fact that an OGL Wiki benefits WotC more than anyone. WotC designers would be able to go through, search tons of OGC quickly, and then paraphrase and revise the material enough to make "new" content that doesn't require acknowledging the OGC source. I'm not saying they would, but they could.

If I sit back and say to myself:

"If I were sitting at WotC as a new employee and learned that the OGL is harming more than it's helping, what would I do?"

I'll tell you what I would do. I'd advocate a site that would collect all OGC and could potentially harm my competitors.

 

[BryonD]

Well, it's either a friendly community or it isn't. Doing something - legal, yes - that will harm Phil is not the action of a friendly community. Therefore, using the "friendly community" rationale as a basis for advocating mass release of OGC is about as hypocritical as can be, in my opinion.

If someone has use "friendly community" as a basis for mass release I missed it.
And if they did I'd completely agree with you.

But I don't see the relevance of this hypothetical to actual statements.

Justifying it with statements like "Open content has been released and that is the end of the discussion there. What is ethical and what is nice and yadda yadda yadda are all just a smoke screen around that." don't mesh with any claims of community.

Facts are facts.
Where did I make any claim of community?

I'd like the idea of a community. But the FACT is that individuals are completely free to ignore that community regardless of what I or anyone else would like.

If someone wants to model their business around the idea that being outside the community is unallowed, then they are working based on illusion. That will result in bad things in the long run.

I specifically reject the claim that there is an implicit community.
A voluntary sub-community? Certainly. But there is no power for this subgroup to impose its preferences on the larger whole.

And it remains hypocritical for an advocate of this community to bend the rules against that community. While there is nothing at all hypocritical about saying that the community idea is nice, but it just ain't binding.

 

[Morrus]

Facts are facts.
Where did I make any claim of community?

You didn't - sorry if that's how it came across. However, the "hypocritical" argument I presented above is one I have seen time and time again over the years and your post reminded me of it.

I think Wulf Ratbane pretty much summed up my feelings far better than I can, anyhow!

 

[D_Sinclair]

Could you sell as many units if you left the OGL behind?
Honest question.

You need not leave OGL behind to leave OGC behind. The OGL does not mandate any minimum quantity of new material be released as OGC. It doesn't even actually appear in the D20 STL, either. The only place where new OGC is mandated is in the D20 style guide that accompanies the D20 STL.

For ARP, the choice is to move to the PCL instead (Prometheus Compatibility License). Their style guide explicitly states that there is no requirement for mandatory new OGC to appear in any product released under the license. We have already released a number of recent products bearing the Prometheus mark rather than the D20 mark, and it has not hurt sales a bit.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I've released several PDFs with Christopher Shy art. That would be the same Shy that _rarely_ works in the game industry these days because he makes too much money working on projects out of Hollywood.

The quality of the art has _almost_ no effect on sales. And certainly not enough of an effect to cover the costs.

I wouldn't judge the effects of sales on one artists Phil. Especially Shy's art. It's very unique and innovative, but it certainly isn't standard style art and certainly isn't everyone's style. Me? I loved it, but you'd be surprised how many people thought he was a poor man's Bill Sch... (I can never spell that guy's name), nor that the style of artwork was appropriate for D&D games in that it was even more 'radical' if you will than the 'spikey' armor look.

Do you have another artist you can point out as an examle that you've used extensively? Honest, not loaded question.

 

[D_Sinclair]

Another thing to consider with the OGC Wiki concept is the fact that more than likely, someone is going to screw with it by adding OGC for non-d20 systems released under the OGL as well. So an OGC Wiki might not be as helpful as one might think, once you find yourself sorting through material for several game systems.

 

[philreed]

I wouldn't judge the effects of sales on one artists Phil. Especially Shy's art. It's very unique and innovative, but it certainly isn't standard style art and certainly isn't everyone's style. Me? I loved it, but you'd be surprised how many people thought he was a poor man's Bill Sch... (I can never spell that guy's name), nor that the style of artwork was appropriate for D&D games in that it was even more 'radical' if you will than the 'spikey' armor look.

Sienkiewicz.

Do you have another artist you can point out as an examle that you've used extensively? Honest, not loaded question.

I've talked to a few but haven't arranged anything yet.

 

[BryonD]

Leaving the OGL behind isn't an option.

Really, what Phil is doing is doing cost-benefit analysis to releasing products as 100% Open Content.

There are advantages to this. Fans like it. It increases the likelihood that other publishers can make use of his OGC and drive customers back to Phil.

There are disadvantages to this. Some fans might decide-- legally, ethically, morally, who cares?-- to distribute Phil's work free of charge.

And all Phil's saying (if I can put more words in his mouth) is that the recent emergence of an OGC Wiki with a respected industry figure putting momentum behind it means that he has to reassess the risks.

It will mean one of two things:

1) Phil resorts to "crippled" OGC designations that are designed to obfuscate the OGC and elevate the threat of legal action if the user runs afoul of the license; or,

2) Phil quits the d20 publishing business and gets a 'real' job (and within months, gamers are complaining that there are no good designers in the RPG industry anymore).

If I'm reading to much into it then I apologize again.

I'll still stay with my prediction that this is all buzz and it won't happen anyway. Not that this makes it less relevant to discuss or anything.

Anyway, the wiki would certainly force all of this. And I'd find it offensive to challenge Phil's choice to respond to it in exactly the ways you describe.

Believe it or not, I'm really on your side. But I've been know to kick up a fuss with my own side when I think they need it.