D&D 5E OK WotC, I've had just about enough of this...

[Hussar]

Just to be clear I don't want 2E-to-4E style bloat. That was out of control. But I wouldn't mind seeing a healthy Pathfinder-esque release schedule, or at least something close to it.

But this inquiry wasn't really meant to be a comment on quantity of product, more about the absolute lack of anything resembling even a hint beyond the Alice in Wonderland thing, and the planned out to seven story arcs.

I also agree with [MENTION=31465]Nebulous[/MENTION] that I'm looking forward/hoping for 3PP products to fill the gap, so at least there's something to choose from. I'm really hoping that someone does something similar to Dungeon Crawl Classics for 5E. For whatever reason WotC seems like they don't see the value in doing one-shot adventure modules any more, which is really a shame.

Heh, you realise Paizo's release schedule is actually just about as fast, if not faster, than 2e at its height? Paizzo is banging out product as fast as it possibly can.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Heh, you realise Paizo's release schedule is actually just about as fast, if not faster, than 2e at its height? Paizzo is banging out product as fast as it possibly can.

Well the difference between the two is Paizo is actually pumping out good products.

 

[Ahrimon]

Well the difference between the two is Paizo is actually pumping out good products.

That's definitely a matter of debate. I find a lot of the Paizo stuff to be just more repetitive gunk.

 

[DongMaster]

Well the difference between the two is Paizo is actually pumping out good products.

No, just no.

Eye of the... And all that.

 

[Mercurius]

As an aside, I was in my FLGS and in the relatively small RPG section, I was surprised at the number of different Pathfinder titles on display. I don't know PF at all (except by reputation) and I was pretty intimidated by the selection of titles. I would have no idea where to start without coming to a forum like this first.

I'm satisfied with the approach that WoTC is taking with D&D where it looks like there will be the 3 core rulebooks, and then a big adventure path and a companion player's option book every 6 months or so. In 3 years, there might be 4 or 5 adventurer's books. In 10 years, well in 10 years there will be a whole new edition, right?

I don't know if it will meet their business goals, but it seems like the game will hold together with that kind of schedule.

Sorry, I missed this one. You know I think this is less Paizo's fault and more the FLGS's. Paizo has created a clear Beginner's Box which, you'd think, a smart FLGS would feature prominently in their display.

This isn't to downplay your feeling of overwhelm--I get that--but Paizo has created a clear entry into the game. They could probably do more to fill the gap between the Beginner's Box and the rest of the line. When I was experiencing 4E Fatigue a few years ago I considered running Pathfinder but wanted a simpler version of the game to run, but more than just the Beginner's Box. They need an "Expert's Box" or something.

 

[Mercurius]

Heh, you realise Paizo's release schedule is actually just about as fast, if not faster, than 2e at its height? Paizzo is banging out product as fast as it possibly can.

I'm not sure if this is true, Hussar, or at least they're doing it in such a way that it doesn't seem so haphazard. With Pathfinder you have, what, a few hardcovers a year? A few setting softcover books? Two adventure paths of six modules each? After that I'm not even sure what they're producing - single adventures? Player companions? It all seems organized and cohesive.

If you want to stay up-to-date with the Pathfinder rules all you need to do is buy 2-3 hardcovers a year. That's it. I'm fairly certain that 2E was cranking out more rules supplementation. And we're not even going into the settings (although, to be honest, I'd love to see a return to 2E's setting bloat as I'm a setting junky).

I don't have a problem with tons of product, but where it gets unwieldy is one new hardcover rule book every month - that's what 3E and 4E did. I think Paizo's model of 2-3 a year, deep coverage of a setting, and plenty of adventures is perfect. There's a fine line between giving you everything you could possibly need and overwhelming you with options.

 

[Hussar]

Summon [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION] - I've had this conversation before. Paizo is banging out a metric crapton of product. At a pace that rivals, if not exceeds TSR's old breakneck speed.

I can totally see being absolutely overwhelmed by trying to come into Pathfinder blind. There's just that much product out there.

 

[Jester David]

Heh, you realise Paizo's release schedule is actually just about as fast, if not faster, than 2e at its height? Paizzo is banging out product as fast as it possibly can.

I'm not sure if this is true, Hussar, or at least they're doing it in such a way that it doesn't seem so haphazard. With Pathfinder you have, what, a few hardcovers a year? A few setting softcover books? Two adventure paths of six modules each? After that I'm not even sure what they're producing - single adventures? Player companions? It all seems organized and cohesive.

Summon [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION] - I've had this conversation before. Paizo is banging out a metric crapton of product. At a pace that rivals, if not exceeds TSR's old breakneck speed.

I can totally see being absolutely overwhelmed by trying to come into Pathfinder blind. There's just that much product out there.

I always called BS on this to. So I stopped and did the math myself.

If you compare the peak years of TSR when they were putting out the most D&D content and accessories (the mid '90s) with last year from Paizo, the latter released more (and will again this year). Even if you include the Forgotten Realms in the mix - fair since a third of Paizo's material is specific to their campaign setting - then Paizo is producing more.
Except... it stops working if you add Dragon and Dungeon to the mix. That was still published by TSR at the time and adds a staggering amount of pages to this mix. And so much of Pathfinder (the monthly APs and Player Companion volumes) are what they used to do for the magazine.

 

[Trickster Spirit]

Or Birthright!...

Look, the idea of spamming the market with several products is that the rpg market is extremely splintered. Not everyone is going to pick up Elemental Evil just because that's the only product on offer.

I realize there's truth behind not competing with yourself, but I really understand this thread. The dearth of product info is ridiculous!

Compare to previous editions, and by this time we would AT LEAST have product announcements for...

Fighter's Handbook
(and by implication, ten more Handbooks, one for each class)
A major campaign guide (like the beloved and extremely ambitious FRCS), with the promise of at least three deliciously crunchy guidebooks to come
Half a dozen adventures, each taking us two or three levels.
Various sundry merchandizing add-ons; books, dice, figures and all that unneeded crap they so desperately want roleplayers to buy, despite how you only need an adventure and some dice, once you've bought the three core rulebooks...

Not saying this discussion is wrong.

But it's sure odd to read posts pretending they don't see the issue, claiming everything is just fine. When the product throughput obviously is a MASSIVE change compared to previous editions.

Why aren't anyone talking about the obvious: the fact that Hasbro simply isn't committing nearly the same resources to D&D as in bygone days?

I mean, the conclusion I'm tempted to draw is, despite 5e being a clear success, it seems the era of pnp rpgs are over, when the market leader is a dozen guys trickling out three modules a year.

WotC simply isn't what everybody thinks it is.

To which I say, thank Pelor they're not going that route again.

It's not that we're burying our heads in the sand and ignoring the fact that they're not coming out with a baker's dozen of new splatbooks, it's that we are actively glad they are not doing that this time around.

Seriously, when have they ever gotten it right putting out a deluge of player's options book straight away? That model has turned the last three editions of the game into an unbalanced and unwieldy mess (even 4E, where the same issue can be seen in all the errata if you try playing without the character builder).

Would 5E really be better off if they put out one hardcover rules book a month? That just leads inevitably to a 6E a few years down the road. I'm much happier with two player's option sourcebooks a year and maybe a campaign sourcebook or smaller adventure or two as well. Wizards is better off focusing on fewer must-have releases capturing as large an audience as possible, as opposed to torrents of product targeting smaller niches of the fanbase.

What I'd like to see is them release an OGL to open up 5E to the third-party publishers - that way WotC can have their cake and eat it too, by avoiding a bloated release schedule of their own and still satisfying the more, more, more appetite of the most ravenous D&D players.

 

[DracoSuave]

Fighter's Handbook
(and by implication, ten more Handbooks, one for each class)
A major campaign guide (like the beloved and extremely ambitious FRCS), with the promise of at least three deliciously crunchy guidebooks to come
Half a dozen adventures, each taking us two or three levels.
Various sundry merchandizing add-ons; books, dice, figures and all that unneeded crap they so desperately want roleplayers to buy, despite how you only need an adventure and some dice, once you've bought the three core rulebooks...

They said they didn't want to glut the market with splatbooks for the health of the system. They haven't announced a large number of splatbooks.

I'm left wondering what the big mystery is here, cause most of us should have expected it to be this way. I for one will choose not to panic, because everything is happening exactly as we were told it would happen.

Plus, I don't have to get excited over Sword and Fist and then find it to be a softcover piece of ass in badness gravy.