Okay .... So an Eldritch Giant Confessor is only a CR 20??

[Nail]

Give him the Practiced Spellcaster feat and a Bead of Karma and his caster level is 19. And that's just off the top of my head.

And the Clr 20 facing him doesn't have a Bead of Karma. Certainly not, nor does the PC Clr 20 have an orange ioun stone, Divine Spell Power feat, and Magic Tattoo.



Those 'Giant buffs are gone, man.

The Clr 11 levels on the 'Giant is just icing on the cake. The levels are nice, but they're non-associated.

 

[Grog]

And the Clr 20 facing him doesn't have a Bead of Karma. Certainly not, nor does the PC Clr 20 have an orange ioun stone, Divine Spell Power feat, and Magic Tattoo.



Those 'Giant buffs are gone, man.

Well even with all that, Greater Dispel Magic maxes out at +20 on the roll.

Of course, at 20th level, the party could just use Mord's Disjunction instead....

 

[Rystil Arden]

Would ya look at that.....huh.

Still, CR 20 is close, I'd guess. Those 11 levels of cleric allows for buffs (that are easily dispelled) and heals (which is most of the time a lost action, given the PCs damage-dealing abilities.) It's worth a +5 bump to CR, given the HD, hp, feats, and saves, though.

Playtest, anyone?

Alright, I'll bite. To keep it fair, I'm going to use the critter as written in the MM, which means we keep such "winner" feats as Iron Will (+28 wasn't enough?) and the listed spell list.

I have two groups at this level range. First, a Barbarian/Paladin of Freedom, a Wizard/Incantatrix, and an Azer Cleric They are level 19 and 20. If they choose to expend valuable spell resources (well over the 25% for an on-CR critter), they pretty much automatically win. Mr. Giant loses over half his HP in the first round and has to use Heal on himself and use Quickened Dimension Door to flee the barbarian's full attack. Then the same thing happens again, but the Giant is out of Heal. Fortunately for the giant, the party is running out of top guns, so if it flees again with Quickened Dimension Door, it can do one smack-down round and even live against the reprisal. Then it dies on the fourth round, or sometimes the fifth depending on luck. This is fighting against a relatively simplistic attack from the PCs where they just keep charging the Confessor and letting him full attack and flee like he wants.

Group 2 is a bit more interesting. They are lower in level (16-17), but they have a Fighter/Monk/Iajutsu Master, a Monk/Ninja/Shou Disciple with a ton of attacks, a rather worthless Paladin of Freedom/Spymaster, an NPC Arcane Trickster who is rather weak, an NPC Marshal, and a Swordsage who can only do ice versions of Desert Wind manoeuvres. The Iajutsu Master can unleash incredible devastation on the Confessor, such that a Heal is again necessary, but he can't do it again for that encounter. The Monk/Ninja is hosed if he can't get a full attack, since he relies on many attacks, but his AC is high enough that the Confessor can't just Power Attack with abandon like against the Barbarian of the other group. The Marshal just gives the aura, and the Paladin of Freedom and Arcane Trickster do basically nothing. (except the latter easily dispels all buffs if there were any and provides minor Sneak Attack spells if allowed to set up with Improved Invisibility) The Swordsage provides some fairly powerful attacks, and unlike the Monk/Ninja/Shou Disciple, he has a manoeuvre that will let him close with the Dimension Dooring Confessor for a full attack. Of course, the Swordsage isn't so safe from the Giant's attacks either. In the end, if the Confessor is forced to trade single attacks with the Monk/Ninja/Shou Disciple (after running out of Quickened D-Doors) while taking pot-shots from the Arcane Trickster, he will lose. If he stands to full attack, he dies more quickly. Frankly, the main thing keeping the giant alive at all is a combination of those massive HPs and the Heal spell.

 

[frankthedm]

But this is a case where a "one size fits all" CR really isn't appropriate, since the giant's CR will be drastically different depending on whether or not he knows the PCs are coming and thus has time to buff. Another flaw in the CR system....

Not a flaw at all. If PCs foolishly let their foes know they are coming, they get a harder fight as they deserve.

And I've said it before, Practiced Spellcaster is too good. In trying to reward bad builds in this system [caster / non caster] a very potent feat falls into the hands of those who have HD to spare.

 

[Grog]

Not a flaw at all. If PCs foolishly let their foes know they are coming, they get a harder fight as they deserve.

It's not always a case of the PCs "letting" their foes know they're coming. Sometimes they're the ones who get attacked.

 

[Glyfair]

Not a flaw at all. If PCs foolishly let their foes know they are coming, they get a harder fight as they deserve.

Especially since the XP rules specifically point out that circumstances will alter the difficulty of an encounter and you should take that into account by giving more experience (and realizing the encounter will be more difficult.

 

[Nail]

Alright, I'll bite. To keep it fair, I'm going to use the critter as written in the MM, ....

Thanks, Rystil.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Thanks, Rystil.

No problem. My analysis is that this thing is definitely going to lose against an appropriate group, no question--it probably doesn't even have enough tricks up its sleeve to flee with its life, even if that is its only goal. However, its massive HP and suite of special abilities nearly ensure that it will take up more than 25% of resources, even for a level 20 group, unless they toy with him in a way that I didn't do in my example (example of 'toying' with him--Flying 400 feet up and slamming him with Long range spells)

 

[Gort]

Keep in mind though, your level 20 group is only 3 people, which is slightly less than usual parties.

I find that CRs become less and less useful at these high levels - so much depends on the makeup of your party, what stat generation system you used, whether players optimise their characters and what their knowledge of the rules is, what splatbooks are being used, and what classes are in use. (some are clearly more powerful than others)

 

[Rystil Arden]

Keep in mind though, your level 20 group is only 3 people, which is slightly less than usual parties.

I find that CRs become less and less useful at these high levels - so much depends on the makeup of your party, what stat generation system you used, whether players optimise their characters and what their knowledge of the rules is, what splatbooks are being used, and what classes are in use. (some are clearly more powerful than others)

I agree with your analysis--in fact, I have espoused nearly an identical idea in most discussions of high-level CR: You basically have to both know your group and playtest to decide. I've had my group troubled greatly and almost lose to a CR 20 encounter, and they've beaten a CR 35 encounter before. By virtue of playing with those same characters since level 1, I have an innate sense of what they can take.

As to the group of three, they have cohorts and other people, but they wouldn't bring anyone else that would help much against an Eldritch Giant confessor, so I figured I'd just use those three. The three of them are definitely on par with most level 20 parties by themselves from what I have read of others' level 20 parties.