OLD Guns

[Atom Mlatom]

Feels like kind of a nitpick to be pointing out since this is the playtest doc with obvious limitations, but I have a Pathfinder converted player who used to be a Gunslinger who has pointed out to me the default stats for the few guns in the OLD doc are a little off.

Damage

Well, unless "Pistol" is supposed to be like a .22 pea-shooter or something, why would it have a 1d6 damage versus the 2d6 damage of a dagger or short bow? When I picture medieval guns, I picture big ol' barrels with half-inch round lead balls coming out the end of 'em.

Range

Another issue seems to be the range increments. For a pistol, 5 (~30 feet) seems reasonable, perhaps even generous. But then you have the mighty arquebus with the same range increment - a weapon type that was notoriously inaccurate as one of the earlier musket designs.

Reloading

Finally, reloading isn't talked about anywhere (unless I missed it?) I wouldn't expect a character to be able to make 2 attacks with an arquebus in the same round. I would suggest that some of these guns, in fact, ought to have even longer reload times than just 1 action.

Comparative Advantage

To sum it all up, medieval armed forces began to adapt to primitive guns, despite their short comings - difficult reloading and maintenance, inaccuracy - due to the trade off of having superior damage versus armored targets. So, I think OLD can reflect that:

• Damage should be higher (if not an altogether unique "armor busting" property ala Pathfinder.) Perhaps ballistic damage should have unique SOAK vulnerabilities, particularly at close range.
  
  
• Range increments can be more varied, to reflect the (in)accuracy of the particular gun.

• Reloading times should be stated and vary per piece of equipment. 1 action? 2 actions? 3?

These seem to be the crux of the issues found with my peeps. I'm sure there's also plenty of room for rules about gunpowder production, etc, but I'm not really concerned with that stuff at the core.

Thoughts? (Summoning @Morrus )

Edit: Interestingly, my Gunslinger friend did not bring up the proposal of rules for having guns misfire as they do in Pathfinder! haha.

 

[Morrus]

Damage in WOIN is more a function of accuracy than anything else. A dagger in the eye is more dangerous than a bullet in the leg. Characters can increase the damage as much as they want by exchanging attack dice for damage dice. You can do 5d6 with a pistol and 2d6 with a shortsword, or vice versa. Either will kill you if it hits you in the wrong place.

Guns as written have one attack per turn. You can increase that to one attack per action with some special tradition abilities.

It's not supposed to be a medieval history simulation - it's a fantasy game. That said, there's clearly room for development (and the addition of a dozen new weapons!)

 

[Atom Mlatom]

I agree completely that accuracy should be the fundamental mechanic in an attack, and I love the trade off function of attack dice : damage dice..

My point was not necessarily that the stats should be more exact according to history, but that there should be some trade offs and consistency relating to this "other" class of ranged weapons. In fact, the Range increment feature is a great way to reflect the emphasis on the function of accuracy here.

Here are some examples of my proposed changes:

• I have added a Reload column which specifies how long each weapon should take to reload in terms of Actions.
• The yellow table is how the playtest is currently written.
• The green table is how I would re-balance these same weapons. I'm still iffy on the costs, considering that could vary greatly depending on tech levels in your setting. I didn't mess with the "Rifle" because that's not the tech level I'm focusing on right now.
• The orange table contains a few ideas on how new gunpowder weapons might look. (Plus the inclusion of a bayonet attachment and an example Superior Quality upgrade)

The important changes, in most cases, were a reduction of the Range increment and an increase of the Damage. This way there's a penalty to consider with your accuracy if you want to engage in long-range fights with these primitive firearms, but anyone who gets hit - even on a lucky shot - is going to hurt regardless. I see no reason why any musket-ball sized firearm shouldn't do at least as much damage as a heavy crossbow by default (accuracy non-withstanding,) or even as a lower end melee weapon (such as a dagger @ 2d6.)

Do these changes seem too radical?

Weapon	Special
4 Chambers
Attachment
6 Chambers

[TD="align: center"] Damage [/TD] [TD="align: center"] Range [/TD] [TD="align: center"] Reload [/TD] [TD="align: center"] Size [/TD] [TD="align: center"] Weight [/TD] [TD="align: center"] Cost [/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00"]Arquebus[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]3d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: center"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]L[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]4[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: right"]500[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00"]Musket[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]2d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: center"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]M[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]4[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: right"]100[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00"]Pistol[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]1d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: center"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]S[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: right"]100[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00"]Rifle[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]2d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]15[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: center"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]M[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ffff00, align: right"]350[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00"]Arquebus[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]5d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]M[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]16[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: right"]300[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00"]Musket[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]4d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]M[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]10[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: right"]500[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00"]Pistol[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]3d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]S[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #00ff00, align: right"]300[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]Gearbox Pistol[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]3d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]2 / 4[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]S[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: right"]750[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]Scatterbox[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]4d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]S[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]4[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: right"]275[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]Bayonet[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]2d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]melee[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]na[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]S[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: right"]10[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]Gearedbox Musket[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]4d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]3 / 6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]L[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]20[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: right"]1000[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]
[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900"]Superior Quality Gearbox Pistol[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]5d6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]4[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]2 / 4[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]S[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #ff9900, align: right"]4000[/TD]

 

[Morrus]

You've got arquebusses there doing more damage than the best phaser rifles in N.E.W.! But the pistol, yeah, maybe it should be 2 dice not one. Almost nothing does more than 3d6 damage.

Certainly range increments probably need a bit of looking at.

 

[Khaalis]

Personally, I don't feel guns should range that much in damage, especially under this system's mechanics. In reality, the difference between pistols and rifles should be range and possibly penetration (if talking N.O.W. firearms). For black powder weapons, range is really the only difference. When being shot by a lead round and being hit in the same location, whether from a pistol at 30ft or a rifle at 90ft the damage is going to be same. Also keep in mind, as with the dagger example, stabbing (not just nicking) someone with a dagger in a melee fight will often cause an equal or larger (more dangerous) wound than a single gunshot.

Here are some black powder weapon stats derived from another system (runs a wide range of time period of black powder).
*: Feudal Era (others are "Age of Reason"

As for Load, I guess it depends on how accurate you want to be and whether or not you take proficiency into account. For instance a professional soldier fired on average 3 shots a minute with a muzzleloader. Since 20 Actions (10 rounds) equals 1 Minute, that would be about an average of Load 7 for that style of gun (a good marking point).

Sidearms
Boarding Pistol (Max. Range: 30 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Spread / Damage: 2d6 / 3lb)
Dueling Pistol (Max. Range: 90 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Unreliable / Damage: 1d6 / 2lb)
Military Pistol (Max. Range: 60 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Bludgeon, Unreliable / Damage: 2d6 / 3lb)
Pocket Pistol (Max. Range: 30 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Unreliable / Damage: 1d6 / 1lb)

Longarms
Blunderbuss (Max. Range: 90 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Spread / Damage: 4d6 / 6lb)
Fire Lance* (Max. Range: 30 ft. / Load 9 / Special Quality: Spread / Damage: 2d6 fire / 10lb)
Hand Cannon* (Max. Range: 180 ft. / Load 9 / Special Quality: Heavy, Inaccurate, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 12lb)
Harquebus* (Max. Range: 180 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Heavy, Inaccurate, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 10lb)
Long Rifle (Max. Range: 360 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Bludgeon, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 9lb)
Musket (Max. Range: 240 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Spike, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 8lb)
Musketoon (Max. Range: 180 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Cavalry, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 6lb)

Unreliable: I would likely make this a -1 or -2 die penalty to any attack roll made with the weapon.
Cavalry: I would have this remove a penalty to Ranged attacks while Mounted. However, that would also require adding such a penalty to mounted combat.
Bludgeon & Spike: Can also be used in melee (bludgeoning or piercing damage).
Heavy: Cannot take a move action in the same round user attacks with the weapon.
Spread: Can deal 1/2 damage to anyone within 5' of the target.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Atom Mlatom]

You've got arquebusses there doing more damage than the best phaser rifles in N.E.W.!

Honestly I hadn't compared and that's a fair point. (BUT...) That might not be as crazy as it sounds. (I suppose I'm picturing "arquebus" as similar to "blunderbus", as Khaalis pleasingly reminded of this awesome word)

Consider modern assault rifles. I would not rate these weapons as having as high of damage as black powder weapons. Higher armor penetration, yes. Higher accuracy at longer ranges, definitely. But the sheer size of the old style bullets made a big hole in your flesh and at a bone crushing impact.

Khaalis might be right that black powder weapons shouldn't vary as much in damage. I still lean closer to 3d6 or 4d6 than 2 for any of them though. Particularly thinking that the older style black powder weapons, with their larger munitions, should be rated for higher damage, despite lame accuracy.

 

[Morrus]

Honestly I hadn't compared and that's a fair point. (BUT...) That might not be as crazy as it sounds. (I suppose I'm picturing "arquebus" as similar to "blunderbus", as Khaalis pleasingly reminded of this awesome word)

Consider modern assault rifles. I would not rate these weapons as having as high of damage as black powder weapons. Higher armor penetration, yes. Higher accuracy at longer ranges, definitely. But the sheer size of the old style bullets made a big hole in your flesh and at a bone crushing impact.

Khaalis might be right that black powder weapons shouldn't vary as much in damage. I still lean closer to 3d6 or 4d6 than 2 for any of them though. Particularly thinking that the older style black powder weapons, with their larger munitions, should be rated for higher damage, despite lame accuracy.

If you want to make you gunpowder weapons do more damage, that's totally cool. As I said, 4d6 etc. are pretty much reserved for damage levels achieved by trading attack dice, even in the far future with phaser weaponry, but if you want gunpowder to do more than phasers, then it's an easy houserule!

 

[Atom Mlatom]

...but if you want gunpowder to do more than phasers, then it's an easy houserule!

Of course it is! That's another one of the great things I appreciate about this game - it's very easy to customize. Naturally, I planned on implementing these changes in my own game asap. However, as a playtester, just putting in my two-cents hoping I can point out something that looks to me would be erroneous to make it to the final cut without some type of minor changes.

 

[Wojorides]

Dueling Pistols and Rifle Unreliable?

Both Dueling Pistols (generally a higher quality item) and Long Rifles were fairly accurate within their operating ranges. Not sure they should have a die penalty. One question are these weapons using Ball or bullet?

Personally, I don't feel guns should range that much in damage, especially under this system's mechanics. In reality, the difference between pistols and rifles should be range and possibly penetration (if talking N.O.W. firearms). For black powder weapons, range is really the only difference. When being shot by a lead round and being hit in the same location, whether from a pistol at 30ft or a rifle at 90ft the damage is going to be same. Also keep in mind, as with the dagger example, stabbing (not just nicking) someone with a dagger in a melee fight will often cause an equal or larger (more dangerous) wound than a single gunshot.

Here are some black powder weapon stats derived from another system (runs a wide range of time period of black powder).
*: Feudal Era (others are "Age of Reason"

As for Load, I guess it depends on how accurate you want to be and whether or not you take proficiency into account. For instance a professional soldier fired on average 3 shots a minute with a muzzleloader. Since 20 Actions (10 rounds) equals 1 Minute, that would be about an average of Load 7 for that style of gun (a good marking point).

Sidearms
Boarding Pistol (Max. Range: 30 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Spread / Damage: 2d6 / 3lb)
Dueling Pistol (Max. Range: 90 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Unreliable / Damage: 1d6 / 2lb)
Military Pistol (Max. Range: 60 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Bludgeon, Unreliable / Damage: 2d6 / 3lb)
Pocket Pistol (Max. Range: 30 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Unreliable / Damage: 1d6 / 1lb)

Longarms
Blunderbuss (Max. Range: 90 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Spread / Damage: 4d6 / 6lb)
Fire Lance* (Max. Range: 30 ft. / Load 9 / Special Quality: Spread / Damage: 2d6 fire / 10lb)
Hand Cannon* (Max. Range: 180 ft. / Load 9 / Special Quality: Heavy, Inaccurate, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 12lb)
Harquebus* (Max. Range: 180 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Heavy, Inaccurate, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 10lb)
Long Rifle (Max. Range: 360 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Bludgeon, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 9lb)
Musket (Max. Range: 240 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Spike, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 8lb)
Musketoon (Max. Range: 180 ft. / Load 7 / Special Quality: Cavalry, Unreliable / Damage: 3d6 / 6lb)

Unreliable: I would likely make this a -1 or -2 die penalty to any attack roll made with the weapon.
Cavalry: I would have this remove a penalty to Ranged attacks while Mounted. However, that would also require adding such a penalty to mounted combat.
Bludgeon & Spike: Can also be used in melee (bludgeoning or piercing damage).
Heavy: Cannot take a move action in the same round user attacks with the weapon.
Spread: Can deal 1/2 damage to anyone within 5' of the target.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Arquebus	5d6	2	3	M	16	300	
Musket	4d6	5	2	M	10	500	
Pistol	        3d6	3	2	S	3	300

I have to agree with Atom that the blackpowder weapons are a bit fuzzy in the playtest. Ideally we would have the entire scope of OLD - > Now - > New to compare as tech levels improve. With that improvement in the real world, we say a decrease in the load times, increase in reliability, and increase in range. We also saw improved defences against the newer, smaller bullets.

I would suggest a slight increase in damage {below} and firearm rules for each period:

Firearms deal 'ballistic' damage and ignore 5 points of normal soak.

OLD: Reload is the number of actions required to prepare the weapon to fire again. You can reduce this by 1 by skipping the normal cleaning of the bore and risk a misfire. Not usually recommended.

Now: Reduce all reload by 2 and increase all ranges by 5
Weapons without a reload speed can be made with auto-fire options
body armor tends to protect against 'ballistic' damage

New: Reduce all reloads to zero. Reduce weight by half.
Weapons without a reload speed can be made with auto-fire options

Weapon     Dam  Rng   Reload Size  Weight GC  Special
Arquebus	3d6	2	3	M	16	300	Spread fire 
Musket	3d6	5	2	M	10	500	
Pistol	        2d6	3	2	S	3	300