Old player gets new insight into D&D from ToEE PC Game

[Steverooo]

There are many reasons for this...

In 1e, the most a Fighter could get was three attacks in two rounds, plus one, if using a dagger or handaxe in the off-hand, for a total of two attacks per round... Nowadays, he gets that at 11th level, four attacks per round by 20th, plus an Attack of Opportunity (plus DEX more, with the Combat Reflexes Feat), PLUS up to three more, with Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF.

Damage potential has also increased. From 1D8+6 for a Fighter with 18/00 STR in 1e, to 2D8+8 for a Half-Orc Fighter with a 20 STR getting a critical (and many weapons do better than 1D8), not to mention Power Attack, the two-handed damage bonus (improved still yet more by PA), and the many magical damage boosters...

I believe "To-Hit" bonuses also rise faster, but I may be wrong...

So there are LOTS of reasons why lower-level PCs have to rest and heal more often.

 

[swrushing]

In my experience, in DND games, the real determining element for 'do you rest" is CAN YOU REST.

Will events proceed while you rest that cause you to lose more than you gain? if you rest three times will you arrive to find the damsel sacrificed already or will you always arrive "to interrupt the sacrifice" whether you rested once or four times?

Will resting give the bad guys time to notice the bodies you have slain and go on alert or will the 20 orcs in the corridor never be noticed or missing?

Whn I played BG2 and ToB and ID1 and ID2, my gang rested far more often than any face-to-face gaming group of mine would ever have. To put it simply, when trying to escape the evil mage's dungeon iwhile he is distracted by assassins assaulting inside his complex and after ourselves slaughtering dozens of his goblins buddies... no face-to-face party of mine would ever consider bedding down in his lab for 8 hours. We would be certain this would casue the invasion to be over, the dead orcs to be found and us to probably wake up back in our cells.

In BG2, its expected.

Do not take your PC game rest experiences and view them as relevent to a face to face game.

 

[John_Daker]

Thanks for all the replies

I just thought I'd ask again for DMs to give examples of how they pace their games so that the rests don't feel forced.

Thanks!

 

[Norfleet]

I realise this could be just because I'm rubbish with the PC game but would welcome insights from others!

That's probably the problem, yes. I never rest, until I return to town hauling back my loot. I wish you could employ the services of a pack mule here. That would significantly improve my ability to schlep back the loot. You're just bad at it....plus CRPGs tend to go for quantity over quality, due to the limits of how many options that might potentially be usable in actual PnP play can be implemented in a video game. 2-3 encounters is a night's worth of play for a PnP group, but it's over in 5 minutes with a computer doing all the rolls and math.

AND IF YOU RUN, YOU ONLY DIE TIRED!

 

[DMScott]

Thanks Scott, that was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. I'd be grateful if you could give some examples of how you've paced your adventures.

I've started using reverse-engineering when I'm setting up an adventure - I work out how much a group should be able to face before resting, convert that to a series of CRs, and design encounters accordingly. Then I usually include some kind of reason why a given group of encounters are related to one another and why a group would be able to rest in between.

For example: say a first level group is invading a Kobold-invested tunnel complex. I might set up the main entry area to total about EL 3 worth of critters if the group fought them all at once, made up of kobolds, guard critters, etc. There might be another section totalling perhaps EL 4 with the lair's religious leader (adept or sorcerer or whatever) and apprentices. Another section about the same total power with the leader and his bodyguards. And so on depending on how big I want to make the tunnel complex.

Then I'd design it so each group of encounters is logically separated - the main gate area only connects to the rest of the tunnels via a couple of trap-infested rooms to encourage the gate guards to fight (otherwise, being kobolds, they'd probably withdraw). The shaman and the leader are rivals so they're unlikely to reinforce one another. Etc. This means that a group has a decent chance of hitting an area, overcoming some encounters until they're low on resources, and then withdrawing before the rest of the lair can get their act together and smush the group. It's a little artificial to set it up this way, but done right it plays out well - helps the players feel like they really are taking on a nest of squabbling, backbiting kobolds. In the end, I'm looking for a fun game more than a painstakingly accurate simulation, and tailoring the ELs and CRs to the group helps a lot.

At higher levels, this sort of compartmentalization becomes less important, because a group will probably have escape magic available to them. A group that can teleport in, hit a target, then teleport out doesn't need to be protected from overwhelming reinforcements.

 

[John_Daker]

Thanks Scott - that's a really helpful example!

 

[Endur]

One of the big differences from 1e to 3e is that a wizard is no longer a useful combatant.

In 1e, a wizard or cleric without any useful spells just picked up a dagger or a staff and starting bashing on the monster. I'm not talking about a buffed cleric or wizard, just an average joe wizard with no combat spells.

In 3e, you don't hardly ever see the average joe wizard pounding on a monster. Combat has become so specialized that the amount of damage the average joe wizard can do with his dagger is meaningless. Unless buff spells are used.

Because Mr. Average Joe 3e Wizard isn't useful in melee with his dagger anymore, the big focus is on whether or not he has any spells to contribute. When he runs out of spells, you start thinking about the idea of resting.

With regards to Computer RPGs, I do think they need better rules on resting. Their wandering monster rules are pretty good, but they do occassionally allow PCs to rest where they shouldn't be able to get away with it.

 

[Mystery Man]

One of the big differences from 1e to 3e is that a wizard is no longer a useful combatant.

In 1e, a wizard or cleric without any useful spells just picked up a dagger or a staff and starting bashing on the monster. I'm not talking about a buffed cleric or wizard, just an average joe wizard with no combat spells.

In 3e, you don't hardly ever see the average joe wizard pounding on a monster. Combat has become so specialized that the amount of damage the average joe wizard can do with his dagger is meaningless. Unless buff spells are used.

Because Mr. Average Joe 3e Wizard isn't useful in melee with his dagger anymore, the big focus is on whether or not he has any spells to contribute. When he runs out of spells, you start thinking about the idea of resting.

With regards to Computer RPGs, I do think they need better rules on resting. Their wandering monster rules are pretty good, but they do occassionally allow PCs to rest where they shouldn't be able to get away with it.

Hogwash.

A wizard is a fine melee combatant when he runs out of spells. Put a bow in his hand with a feat for it and he's gravy. Who in there right mind would have their wizard wade into battle with dagger anyway? In an edition? I seem to remember back in 1E that was a good and quick why to die. The same holds true in 3E.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hogwash.

A wizard is a fine melee combatant when he runs out of spells. Put a bow in his hand with a feat for it and he's gravy. Who in there right mind would have their wizard wade into battle with dagger anyway? In an edition? I seem to remember back in 1E that was a good and quick why to die. The same holds true in 3E.

In fact in 3e the wizard is a bit better off, because he can carry and use a light crossbow.

 

[Mystery Man]

In fact in 3e the wizard is a bit better off, because he can carry and use a light crossbow.

Or with a feat can use a bow.