D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Emerikol]

So do you believe a succubus or a balor has the same opportunity to be LG as an elf or an orc?

No. I don't believe on average a balor is going to be good as often as an elf or an orc. An orc is not going to be good as often as an elf. That does not negate free will so any given Balor in theory could be good though he'd die almost instantly when his fellows detected he was good. Personally as a GM, I am always open to a traditionally evil being being good for some unusual reason. Hey helmet of alignment change if nothing else. That does not mean I can't ever have a default view of a particular race or creature type for a given world.

If you believe in angels and demons for real for example, then you'd think all demons are evil and all angels are good. I know not everyone does though so that is just an example.

 

[Emerikol]

The "myth of the clean Wehrmacht" has been debunked for years. Regular German army often and eagerly participated in war crimes and atrocities. It wasn't just the SS. A lot of folks were motivated to pretend they didn't know, but a lot sure did.

DER SPIEGEL | Online-Nachrichten

www.spiegel.de

You misunderstand. I did not intend to imply every single German soldier was innocent. I am saying that some were innocent (well as much as any human can truly be innocent). Read the book Soldat. I am also saying that we killed those "good" Germans the same as the "bad" ones.

 

[Azzy]

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
On a cold and frosty morning.

 

[Scribe]

Generally, when a class of fictional character is vilified in the fiction in ways that mirror real-life vilification of marginalized groups, people of those groups tend to end up identifying with those fictional characters. Because they recognize in those characters a shared struggle that they have also experienced. That’s why LGBTQIA folks tend to identify with Disney villains and horror movie monsters, and a lot of BIPOC gamers identify with traditionally monstrous races. I remember reading an article from a half-black writer who identified strongly with orcs and half-orcs, and would play them at every opportunity. I’ll see if I can dig it back up.

I think that opens a very interesting line of discussion, but I'm not convinced this forum can handle it.

This specifically.

"Generally, when a class of fictional character is vilified in the fiction in ways that mirror real-life vilification of marginalized groups, people of those groups tend to end up identifying with those fictional characters."

If we removed from the game, the parts that are racist (real life vilification) would they still identify with them?

 

[Justice and Rule]

Oh, okay. To me this boils down to "Because this is the story I want to tell," as justification for why something is included in the setting. It might not be a reason you or I like but it's a valid reason.

That's fine. I just might take the extra step to explain why I want to tell that story or included that element specifically when it comes to touchier subjects. But that's just how I do things.

 

[TwoSix]

Generally, when a class of fictional character is vilified in the fiction in ways that mirror real-life vilification of marginalized groups, people of those groups tend to end up identifying with those fictional characters. Because they recognize in those characters a shared struggle that they have also experienced. That’s why LGBTQIA folks tend to identify with Disney villains and horror movie monsters, and a lot of BIPOC gamers identify with traditionally monstrous races. I remember reading an article from a half-black writer who identified strongly with orcs and half-orcs, and would play them at every opportunity. I’ll see if I can dig it back up.

Wouldn't that argue for leaving fictionally marginalized in-groups in the game, as allowing marginalized people that outlet of playing an identifiable character would seem to be a positive thing?

Although I guess it argues more for Warcraft-style orcs than Gruumsh-following orcs.

 

[Emerikol]

If we removed from the game, the parts that are racist (real life vilification) would they still identify with them?

I want no one to feel bad honestly. Still at some point there are destructive ways of thinking that are harmful to you when you think them. Can we eradicate from society every possible way a person can be offended? Isn't there some necessity to live and let live and to give others the benefit of the doubt. I don't think most people or most gamers are racist. Some of both are racist though.

Examples of where it has gone way to far is when the terms whitelist or blacklist are banned from tech departments. Where the fact white moves first in chess is considered an outrage. Especially since chess originated in India in all likelihood. Should I be offended that white is the color of death in many societies? I know it is not in ours but it is in others. I'm not offended. I'd honor their culture and if attending a funeral in that country I'd wear white. Sometimes it's a coincidence. It's like light and darkness. Some people think viewing light as better is racist. Really? I don't like fumbling around in the dark so I prefer some light. I don't think that is racist.

We have some bad problems including racism but not every answer is a good one. I want Martin Luther King's ideal. When people forget there even are races and just treat people based on their character then and only then we will be done with racism. Sadly racism and tribalism are closely related and it's very easy in a crisis for people to revert to bad ways.

 

[Justice and Rule]

If we removed from the game, the parts that are racist (real life vilification) would they still identify with them?

Wouldn't that argue for leaving fictionally marginalized in-groups in the game, as allowing marginalized people that outlet of playing an identifiable character would seem to be a positive thing?

Although I guess it argues more for Warcraft-style orcs than Gruumsh-following orcs.

I mean, having marginal groups within the universe is largely disconnected from however they are described by the out-of-universe narrator in the books. We can have smart, interesting dialogues without letting Uncle Volo say stupid naughty word at the Thanksgiving table.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think that opens a very interesting line of discussion, but I'm not convinced this forum can handle it.

This specifically.



If we removed from the game, the parts that are racist (real life vilification) would they still identify with them?

I think that’s a bridge we’ll have to cross when we come to it, as until the outstanding representation issues are addressed, it’s ultimately an academic question. I imagine that people who already identify with those types of characters will continue to do so, because the association has already been built. Whether a new generation will independently build such an association after the issues have been resolved probably depends on what the characters look like without those problematic elements.

 

[Scribe]

I mean, having marginal groups within the universe is largely disconnected from however they are described by the out-of-universe narrator in the books. We can have smart, interesting dialogues without letting Uncle Volo say stupid naughty word at the Thanksgiving table.

Absolutely, again I've said like 4 times today, remove the bad stuff from Volo's.

The question, is just a question. If people identify with these lineages is the removal of that the basis for their identification with the lineage removing what they identify with?

Like, is the 'character' of the Tiefling defined by the cringe worthy PHB? Is that it?

EDIT: @Charlaquin yeah, thats what I'm thinking.