D&D 5E Old School: No Revivify or Raise Dead for elves

[Perun]

Several of the threads I've been following lately made me look back to AD&D days with nostalgia. Now, I know I wouldn't really go back playing AD&D, especially since the people I play with started with 3e or later editions, and they give me odd looks when I talk about the Glory That Was AD&D

But, the result is that I'm considering some house-rules in an attempt to bring back (or, heh, resurrect) some of the flavor of editions past. One such rule was that elves could not be brought back to life with raise dead. A modern version of this rule would include revivify, since that spell didn't exist in AD&D. They could be reincarnated, and resurrection worked normally. The reason given was, IIRC, that elves had no souls, but were spirit creatures.

This might be a bit unfair (to say the least) to elven PCs, since, well... if they die at lower levels there's not much anyone can do for them...

So, thoughts?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Honestly, I wouldn't categorize revivify along with raise dead. It's supposed to be a "They're not really dead yet," spell.

 

[Coroc]

If you want to do it grognard style, revivify should work for elves, raise dead not but eventually resurrection should.

 

[Minigiant]

Revivify doesnt even feel like its bringing back a soul. The time is only a minute. The psychopomps haven't shown up yet.

Revivify seems like it is just closing wounds and repairing the organ damage from lack of oxygen. So it should work on an elf.

 

[Li Shenron]

Several of the threads I've been following lately made me look back to AD&D days with nostalgia. Now, I know I wouldn't really go back playing AD&D, especially since the people I play with started with 3e or later editions, and they give me odd looks when I talk about the Glory That Was AD&D

But, the result is that I'm considering some house-rules in an attempt to bring back (or, heh, resurrect) some of the flavor of editions past. One such rule was that elves could not be brought back to life with raise dead. A modern version of this rule would include revivify, since that spell didn't exist in AD&D. They could be reincarnated, and resurrection worked normally. The reason given was, IIRC, that elves had no souls, but were spirit creatures.

This might be a bit unfair (to say the least) to elven PCs, since, well... if they die at lower levels there's not much anyone can do for them...

So, thoughts?

I would be OK with such house rule, because in general when a PC dies I ask the player if they are ok to go along with it, or if they'd rather take a (serious) penalty for a while but stay alive, so there wouldn't even be a problem of fairness for me.

I agree with the others that Revivify doesn't truly feel like a resurrection spell because of the 1 minute requirement. I would say that the soul doesn't depart that quickly from the body, but it's up to you.

 

[ccooke]

It's a pretty common houserule in a few games that revivify is the only get-out-of-dying-free spell that works at all.

I have also played with a few groups that have insisted the somatic component involves rubbing the palms of the hands vertically together, and the verbal component is "Clear!" ;-)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I tend to concur with those saying Revivify should be excepted from this, because it has to be cast within 1 minute, and can only be cast on creatures which are relatively whole. Whatever it is that makes elves go is still going to be "with the body" for 1 minute for sure.

The lore in 5E actually kind of supports a "reincarnate only" approach, in that elves apparently do have souls, but a finite number of them, and for a new elf to be born, another elf has to die. Thus Resurrection might be "incompatible" with them, because if they've been dead for a while, their soul might well be "in use".

Whereas Reincarnate could be seen as something different. Here's how I might house rule all this if I wanted things to be a bit different but roughly 5E lore compatible:

1) If the sun has not yet risen again on where the elf fell (or moon, your choice, depends on your elf style), the soul has not yet been sent back into the cycle. And thus any resurrection-type spell works.

2) If the sun/moon has risen, the soul has been taken back into the cycle. It's not necessarily "in use", but it's beyond the reach of such spells, because the number of souls is limited and guarded either by the karmic forces, elven gods, or whatever. At this point, your only option is Reincarnate (barring Wish etc.).

3) Elves who get reincarnated always reincarnate as an Elf (but randomize within that). Why? Because of the process/gods who jealously guard the few elven souls. In fact what happens is that whatever elf that soul had gone to (depending on your world's theology when the soul enters the elf could be anywhere between conception and several years after birth) is whisked away, magically aged up to adulthood (perhaps in front of your very eyes!), and granted their memories again. If they'd been dead a long time, they might simply be teleported to you and re-granted their memories.

Not actually saying I'd do that and there are no doubt refinements and additions, but if you want to make Elves different on this, that could work, and I think has a strong "fantasy/magical" feel to it.


Another, more simple take would be the Elves are part of nature, and their spirits (rather than souls) are like animal spirits, no different from them, so when they die, they don't go to the planes (or beyond) like the souls of most beings, they just go very rapidly into an animal or another elf or whatever. Thus spells other than Revivify (which is basically a magical crash cart) will never work on them, because their souls aren't in the place that spells like Raise Dead and Resurrection and so on are "looking". It's like your searching the wrong database. But the different approach of Reincarnate does locate the spirit. Again I would suggest either a different table for elves (perhaps including various fey beings, and animals), or an elf-only table for the Reincarnate results. If elves can come back as, say, Halflings or Humans, they clearly have the same sort of souls as them.


As an aside, if elves don't have souls at all, it seems like they should be easier to resurrect than other beings (because you're not having to get the soul "back" from anywhere), or totally and completely impossible (including by reincarnate, which is entirely based on transmigration of the soul).

 

[jasper]

What is things when didn't pay attention in 1e Alex? With all the advantages Elfs get in 5E I have no problem going old school and allowing this house rule.

 

[Fenris-77]

What is things when didn't pay attention in 1e Alex? With all the advantages Elfs get in 5E I have no problem going old school and allowing this house rule.

What, you think DEX-based, extra magic, condition immunities, darkvision, extra skills and weapons, and an enormous life span is a too good?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Several of the threads I've been following lately made me look back to AD&D days with nostalgia. Now, I know I wouldn't really go back playing AD&D, especially since the people I play with started with 3e or later editions, and they give me odd looks when I talk about the Glory That Was AD&D

But, the result is that I'm considering some house-rules in an attempt to bring back (or, heh, resurrect) some of the flavor of editions past. One such rule was that elves could not be brought back to life with raise dead. A modern version of this rule would include revivify, since that spell didn't exist in AD&D. They could be reincarnated, and resurrection worked normally. The reason given was, IIRC, that elves had no souls, but were spirit creatures.

If you want go old school, then Elves cannot be resurrected or raised. When killed, Elves are dead.

The only exception is either a reincarnation, or a Rod of Resurrection. Why does a Rod work, when nothing else does?

Why not?

Do not questions the rules, just learn to embrace them. And quote them.

This might be a bit unfair (to say the least) to elven PCs, since, well... if they die at lower levels there's not much anyone can do for them...

So, thoughts?

If you want to go old school, you need to banish silly thoughts about fairness from your mind.