Old School Spells

[moritheil]

There are a number of spells that were nerfed compared to their 2ed (or possibly even 3ed) versions. Haste, Fly, Time Stop, Stoneskin, and Fireshield come to mind.

If I were to re-introduce some old spells in the form of "more powerful" versions of the current spells of the same name, what level would you think they would be?

Old Haste: doubles attacks (I think; it's been a long time) or in 3ed gives an extra action (which does allow multiple casting).

Old Stoneskin: negates all physical damage except for critical hits. Wears off after a number of attacks rather than a set time or damage limit. Made life easier for mages.

Old Fly: better duration.

Old Fireshield: deals back twice the damage recieved (none of this silly die roll plus a certain amount of damage business - the old fireshield could put out truly horrific damage, but only if the victim was taking it; if the damage was negated by something like stoneskin, the fireshield dealt no damage.)

Old Time Stop: no restrictions on not attacking or anything of the like. However, as Time Stop is already 9th, I suppose it's not possible to make it a higher spell level, so I'd ask for some alternate restrictions on it.

 

[the Jester]

There are a number of spells that were nerfed compared to their 2ed (or possibly even 3ed) versions. Haste, Fly, Time Stop, Stoneskin, and Fireshield come to mind.

If I were to re-introduce some old spells in the form of "more powerful" versions of the current spells of the same name, what level would you think they would be?

Old Haste: doubles attacks (I think; it's been a long time) or in 3ed gives an extra action (which does allow multiple casting).

I have a spell imc (Marius' double actions) based on 3.0 haste that allows the caster to take two rounds' worth of actions each round for 1d4 rounds. It's 7th level. With a duration of anything like 1 round/level, an extra standard action per round is a high-end 9th level spell imho; and I wouldn't allow it in my game after seeing the difference in balance between 3.0 and 3.5 based on the changes to haste alone.

Old Stoneskin: negates all physical damage except for critical hits. Wears off after a number of attacks rather than a set time or damage limit. Made life easier for mages.

It would really depend on the specifics, but in general this would be kind of a 'come out of nowhere' mechanic that doesn't seem to make much sense to me in retrospect. One of the beautiful things about 3e is the elegent way the rules all fit together. I like having DR for stoneskin. I have a higher level version imc that gives DR of 15/- and light fortification for 10 minutes/level. It's, aargh, have to grab my Players' Guide to Cydra!!- it's 9th level. The 'negate all damage from one attack' mechanic doesn't even really make sense to me in the context of 3e, sorry. :\

Old Fly: better duration.

See overland flight for a good yardstick. Or use Extend Spell, maybe.

Old Fireshield: deals back twice the damage recieved (none of this silly die roll plus a certain amount of damage business - the old fireshield could put out truly horrific damage, but only if the victim was taking it; if the damage was negated by something like stoneskin, the fireshield dealt no damage.)

Hell no, given the amount of damage creatures deal in 3e. I don't know if you've played in high-level games, but the characters imc have been worked from low level all the way up to epic, and the tanks deal tons of damage. I don't know that the old version of FS would be balanced even as a 9th level spell; it's damage output is potentially extreme.

Old Time Stop: no restrictions on not attacking or anything of the like. However, as Time Stop is already 9th, I suppose it's not possible to make it a higher spell level, so I'd ask for some alternate restrictions on it.

I doubt whether you could balance this one effectively either at less than epic level- it makes any wizard with timestop and teleport an invincible killing machine, especially if he can also scry. (Scry enemy, time stop, teleport in, blast him real good and teleport out again before time speeds up again- he won't even know who hit him if he survives!) As an epic spell, though, I can see it- and I have it in my game; it's Spellcraft DC is 72, and only spells with energy descriptors can harm other creatures while you're accelerated, but it lasts 5 subjective rounds.

I'd be interested to see what you come up with- I don't mean to be a naysayer on this, but I think there were good reasons why all of these spells were changed (in the context of 3e).

 

[moritheil]

Old Haste: 7th? Thanks!

Old Stoneskin: think of it as more of a "legendary wizard" sort of spell, the ones you hear about in fables, where someone can just sit and yawn as dragons or something attempt to rend his flesh. I'm thinking this is perhaps 9th in the new system, due to the general drop in the effectiveness of wizard defense. Believe me, it isn't all that overpowered, especially since missed attacks and hits from spells (such as magic missile) strip away layers of protection even if they aren't physical attacks or do not connect.

Old Flight: Okay, I guess I'll check it out.

Old Fireshield: Yes, but that's EXACTLY the reason I want to stick it back in. As I said before, truly horrific amounts of damage output. That's what made the spell so useful. 3.5 fireshield isn't even a pale imitation of the original. This was the one spell that made heavy meleers think twice about tearing into the soft flesh of a mage. Plus, globe of invulnerability on the attacker would have negated it anyhow.

Old Time Stop: Thanks. Seems to be silly to have a Spellcraft check to balance it, though. I was wondering if you would recommend absurdly rare components, or a different limitation type (maybe the caster can attack, but he can't cast any teleport or buff spells).

I have a spell imc (Marius' double actions) based on 3.0 haste that allows the caster to take two rounds' worth of actions each round for 1d4 rounds. It's 7th level. With a duration of anything like 1 round/level, an extra standard action per round is a high-end 9th level spell imho; and I wouldn't allow it in my game after seeing the difference in balance between 3.0 and 3.5 based on the changes to haste alone.

It would really depend on the specifics, but in general this would be kind of a 'come out of nowhere' mechanic that doesn't seem to make much sense to me in retrospect. One of the beautiful things about 3e is the elegent way the rules all fit together. I like having DR for stoneskin. I have a higher level version imc that gives DR of 15/- and light fortification for 10 minutes/level. It's, aargh, have to grab my Players' Guide to Cydra!!- it's 9th level. The 'negate all damage from one attack' mechanic doesn't even really make sense to me in the context of 3e, sorry. :\



See overland flight for a good yardstick. Or use Extend Spell, maybe.



Hell no, given the amount of damage creatures deal in 3e. I don't know if you've played in high-level games, but the characters imc have been worked from low level all the way up to epic, and the tanks deal tons of damage. I don't know that the old version of FS would be balanced even as a 9th level spell; it's damage output is potentially extreme.



I doubt whether you could balance this one effectively either at less than epic level- it makes any wizard with timestop and teleport an invincible killing machine, especially if he can also scry. (Scry enemy, time stop, teleport in, blast him real good and teleport out again before time speeds up again- he won't even know who hit him if he survives!) As an epic spell, though, I can see it- and I have it in my game; it's Spellcraft DC is 72, and only spells with energy descriptors can harm other creatures while you're accelerated, but it lasts 5 subjective rounds.

I'd be interested to see what you come up with- I don't mean to be a naysayer on this, but I think there were good reasons why all of these spells were changed (in the context of 3e).

 

[Rhun]

Old Time Stop: Thanks. Seems to be silly to have a Spellcraft check to balance it, though.

That's because he said it is an Epic Spell in his campaign...all Epic Spells have Spellcraft checks.

 

[the Jester]

Note that my version of 3.0 haste lasts only 1d4 rounds.

 

[yennico]

Even an old stoneskin spell regardless of which level can be dispelled.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

I vote to bring back the 'Dig' spell. It rocked

 

[ARandomGod]

I think old haste would be fine even at the same level if you also simply added a clause to prevent double spellcasting.

I'm pretty sure that with the double spellcasting, people will yell about it being overpowered no matter what.

 

[moritheil]

Heh, and the 'Trip' spell? Anyone else have some ideas for cool spells fallen by the wayside?

I vote to bring back the 'Dig' spell. It rocked

 

[glass]

Heh, and the 'Trip' spell? Anyone else have some ideas for cool spells fallen by the wayside?

I was always rather fond of airy water.


glass.