OMG: The Core Cleric

[Thurbane]

From what I've seen, the "dominance" of the cleric and druid is pretty dependant on spending several rounds buffing before the fight - and one well placed Dispel can wreak havoc on those buffs.

To be fair, my experience is primarily with clerics, and only fleeting with druids...

 

[Infiniti2000]

There are plently of arguments against that position, but what are the arguments for the all-powerful Cleric?

Are you asking why is such a powerful class allowed in the rules, contrary to the normal design goal of balance amongst the classes? The reason is that even as powerful as the cleric class is, you still constantly get, "I'm not playing the cleric."

It sucks being the one that everyone relies upon for healing. Some of the splatbooks go overboard IMO and there are undoubtedly houserules to alter the above feeling, but I believe that should answer your question.

 

[Klaus]

Clerics could lose Heavy (and maybe even Medium) Armor Proficiency and not become weak at all (the only real advantage of Medium Armor Proficiency is mithril full plate, 'cause breastplate is only +1 AC better than chain shirt).

 

[nittanytbone]

The trick to build a cleric that dominates is simple -- stop caring so much about your friends. When your party members are pleading for healing in round 4 of the fight, the CoDzilla's time is likely better spent wading into the fight solo, as they are fully buffed and can likely handle the encounter all by themselves! With a party that takes care of their own in-combat healing (potions/Healing Belts/lay on hands/scrolls), the cleric becomes infinitely more powerful. In addition, using a wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor out of combat to preserve spell slots also helps a cleric extend their staying power. 750 GP split among 4 PCs is easily affordable by level 2, but many groups simply expect their cleric to patch them up, for free, all day long, and then complain when the cleric is nothing but a heal-bot!

Wise clerics rely on only one or two critical in-combat buffs to reduce buffing time, with other buffs being added via long duration spells, persistent spell (with splatbooks, of course -- preferable with Divine Metamagic), or quicken spell (again, preferably with DMM). If given extra time to buff, of course, a cleric simply gains even more super-awesome power.

- In a core only setting, your low level cleric buff of choice on defense is Protection from Evil (+2 vs. everything on defense + handy immunities) combined with Divine Favor to help offense.

- Once you hit level 7, Divine Power is the buff of choice. Magic Vestment will be running all day.

- Once you hit level 9, Divine Power + Quickened Divine Favor and you're good to go. Greater Magic weapon and Greater Magic vestment run all day at this point. A Ring of Counterspelling with a Dispel Magic loaded into it can be easily had to prevent Dispel Magic from taking you down.

Limiting splatbooks pretty much just limits the number of encounters/day that the cleric can be fully buffed for. With DMM Persistent, the cleric will be running around with Divine Power all day for every encounter. Without it, he'll likely only have it for 2-3/day, although a wise cleric would try to get one copy on a scroll just in case a BBEG inconveniently shows up just before bed time.

A 9th level cleric with Divine Power + Divine Favor + Magic Vestment + Greater Magic Weapon running has stats similar to a fighter (14 STR + 6 STR = 20 STR; MV + GMW = level appropriate gear for free; D8 HD + 1 HP/level = D10 HD; Full BAB like a fighter; +3 to hit/damage takes care of misc. bonuses from feats like weapon spec). In addition, the cleric retains all of their spellcasting ability, making them powerful and versatile. The fighter can't change out feats from day to day, summon (or drive off) an undead horde, or perform recon with powerful divinations. Plus, the cleric comes with a strong will save, mitigating the fighter's biggest problem.

Extra goodies -- domains are hugely powerful. With the travel domain, clerics gain immunity to grapple from level 1 as well as access to great mage spells like Fly, Dimension Door, and Teleport. Luck lets you reroll 1x/day, also quite handy.

Melee clerics are the easiest to build -- their buffs play towards massive damage output + massive defensive protections. Archer clerics are viable in core only but become better when the Elf domain is allowed. Skill monkey clerics are viable with proper domain selection, especially if Cloistered Cleric from the UA/SRD is allowed. So, you can get quite a bit of variety very easily with your cleric, even in a core or mostly-core setting.

 

[Shin Okada]

In a bigger party (say, 6+), a party may have 2+ clerics or similar type characters. Then, a cleric does not need to spend most of his time and resources for healing. And everything start to change.

Regarding time for buffing, it effectiveness depend on each playgroup's tactics and environment.

If a party tend to spend few rounds for buffing before "kicking the door", and environment of the adventure or campaign tend to allow it, cleric's melee power is always strong.

If not, a cleric would better take Quicken spell or Sudden Quicken metamagic feats or has no time for buffing.

Still, even without tons of buffing, a Cleric tend to be a much better melee combatant then most other characters sans full-BAB melee monsters. And they have good attack spells, too.

Also, recently, I found if one or some of the frontline tanks are Warforged (quite popular today), the burden of a Cleric as a healer is lessened. Now it is arcane caster or artificer who must cure that Warforged tank, not a cleric.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I played in an effective three man party with a fighter and melee cleric, I was a wizard. The cleric wouldn't enter combat until he'd buffed himself for two to three rounds. Mostly we had a chance to surprise our opponents so buffing beforehand was no problem. If our foes ambushed us, me and the fighter could hold the monster(s) off through ray of enfeeblement and the fighter using combat expertise or I'd just web them until the cleric was buffed. The game was set in an urban environment so web was almost always effective. I could've substituted it for other battlefield control if necessary - solid fog, Evards, wall of force. Even grease.

The self buffing cleric also works well with the deadliest tactic in D&D - scry and teleport AKA scry and die.

 

[Vurt]

Extra goodies -- domains are hugely powerful. With the travel domain, clerics gain immunity to grapple from level 1 as well as access to great mage spells like Fly, Dimension Door, and Teleport.

I just wanted to point out that the Travel Domain does not, in fact, make you immune to grapples.

TRAVEL DOMAIN

Granted Powers: For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds).

Emphasis mine. Grappling is typically not a magical effect.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Kat']

As it has been said before, Cleric is awesome because of his inherent versatility. He gets a high survivability due to his two good saves, good HP and armor proficiency, acceptable offensive potential, Turn Undead who can also be used to fuel Divine Metamagic and Divine Feats, and full spellcasting with a huge list of spells. In addition, his casting is Wisdom-based, meaning he will most probably have the highest Will save in the whole party and pretty nice Spot, Listen and Sense Motive. Another point taht hasn't been mentioned yet, the Cleric has excellent possibilities when it comes to Prestige Classes, given that the only thing he has to lose is his Turn undead progression (and there are even PrC taking care of that...).

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I game with a player who is very experienced with the cleric class and core only rules.

In my opinion frankthedm & nittanytbone sum up my experience. I play a paladin with generous stats but his cleric is decidely the better warrior.

(Although it should be noted his cleric is a cleaving, power attacking, greatsword wielder while mine has opted for a defensive combat expertise, sword & shield build. The counter to that is his cleric has died 3 times - twice because his buffs were down and he pressed ahead as if they were up.)

In short, the melee cleric can repeatedly buff up the wazoo to make the warriors look like amateurs. Going 2 handed just makes all those strength buffs get *1.5 beefier and the surplus attack mods can convert 2:1 into damage. Get a holy sword + magic weapon spell and the raw damage potential gets out of whack with other parts of the game.

 

[Brace Cormaeril]

I just wanted to point out that the Travel Domain does not, in fact, make you immune to grapples.



Emphasis mine. Grappling is typically not a magical effect.

Cheers,
Vurt

I would just like to point out that, yeah, it does...
From Freedom of Movement
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

House-rule to your hearts content.

Prost,
Brace