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OMG: The Core Cleric

Storme

First Post
I just don't see it.

I can't see how any cleric of equal level would survive more than a round against my 14th level wizard who has so many things he could do to him with no save...let alone Globe of Invulnerabiltiy and other Cleric Gimping effects. The cleric might take out a Fighter after a long, hard battle though...I'll give him that.

Sorry...I just don't see it.
 

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Voadam

Legend
InVinoVeritas said:
So the best cleric would be a melee cleric? Are there any other good configurations?

Better undead necromancer than a necromancer wizard. (lower animate, all sorts of undead buffing.)

Compare a summoner conjuration wizard to a cleric focused on summoning. Same spells, the cleric does not get his bonus spell as a summoning one but gets more HD, heavy armor casting, etc.

Healing. Best Healing in the game.

Great solo class, can fight, heal, do magic, has decent hp and saves.

Great self buffer combatant.

Great group buffer.

Great divination specialist (cheap scrying)

Undead smiter, turning and lots of undead spells.

Can fill multiple of these rolls without huge dilution of power.

All under core only.
 

nittanytbone

First Post
Ridley's Cohort said:
If I burn lots of spells to prepare, I can be 110% as good as an unbuffed Fighter. (And smart Fighters can buff, too.)/QUOTE]

Greater Magic Weapon - Level IV spell
Magic Vestment - Level III spell

Divine Favor - Level I spell
Quickened Divine Favor - Level I spell
Divine Power - Level V spell

A 9th level cleric with 20 Wisdom (not unreasonable at that level! 15 starting + 2 from levels = 17, all he needs is a +2 stat boost item and slightly more generous point buy, or dropping something else by two points at char creation; or a 16.).

He has enough spells for at least 1-2 tough encounters, easily, to be buffed to the nines. If you're willing to accept one extra round of buffing and drop your quickened Divine Favors, then there's enough resources for 3 encounters, easily. Minor encounters can probably be dealt with via a simple Protection from Evil or Bull's Strength or something, so that cleric in all likelihood has "go all day" staying power.

0 - 6
I - 4+1+1
II - 4+1+1
III - 3+1+1
IV - 2+1+1
V - 1+1+1
 

Ridley's Cohort

First Post
I think the general conclusion is that it is theoretically possible for a Cleric to be overpowered, but it is rather rare to see it happen in actual play.

Buffing the Fighter is just so easy, resource efficient, and tactically versatile. A little goes a long way.

You must possess the "self-discipline" to not simply buff the Fighter so that the party kicks some ass right now. You have to have the foresight to buff yourself now so that you can hog the glory 4 rounds in the future, over the screams of your comrades getting pasted in the mean time. You must be made of stern stuff!

Furthermore, even as your average damage per round climbs, you are not necessarily in the same league. The Fighter has been stacking up crazy feat chains -- Cleave, Spring Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Trip, Spirted Charge, etc.
 

squee

First Post
Ridley's Cohort said:
The argument for such a well-endowed class boils down to the fact that defensive strengths and versatility do not necessarily make for a fun or overly powerful character at the table.

If I burn lots of spells to prepare, I can be 110% as good as an unbuffed Fighter. (And smart Fighters can buff, too.)

If I burn all my top spell slots, I can be 90% as good as a Wizard for a few rounds.

It is simply not a given that either of the above will be practical for a PC in a particular adventure. The best DMs know how to keep the pace of combat in doubt, so neither of the above tactics are necessarily wise. What if you burn your best buffs and the high value targets retreat? What if they counterattack when your buffs have run out?

As Thurbane correctly points out, the overwhelming awesomeness of the Cleric or Druid only appears after a few rounds of buffing. Before that they are both unremarkable.

The deeper issue is that Resource Balance is less important than Dramatic Balance.

Most players do not care about what the sophisticated spreadsheet cooked up by some design wonk says about the normalized effective combat value of a particular build. What they care about is how often everyone at the table says: "Dude! That was a cool move!"

Players do not get frustrated because someone else's PC averages 11.2% more damage per round than their own PC. Players get frustrated or fail to have fun because they have too few special schticks that grab the spotlight when compared to other PCs.

Spreadsheets and average damage are about Resource Balance.

Dramatic Balance is about getting opportunities to wow other players with their schticks.

The Cleric and Druid look great on the spreadsheet. But in real world parties, they tend to be 2nd best at spellcasting, 2nd best at fighting, 2nd best as social interactions, etc, which translate into weak PCs when measured by the Drama factor.

this is the biggest problem i see with the cleric, every time someone has a "wow opportunity" the cleric/druid says 'i can do that' and it takes away from the other players acheivment.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
A melee cleric doesn't not buff the warriors, they merely prioritise themselves. The divine might, divine favour, and righteous might spells force the issue - they're strong buffs and they're personal buffs.

Many defensive buffs have a duration that precludes the need to buff in combat. 10 minute/lvl spells such as magic circle, resist/protection from elements are done prior to the days foray. That really leaves the minute buffs remaining, and they can be mistimed to run out or require actions in combat.

The buffing of the warriors tends to bring deminishing returns as the characters get higher level. The threat of dispel and being caught isolated creates a desire for permanent buffs such as the various enhancements, resistances, and deflection - e.g. the warrior with guantlets of ogre power gets less value from the bull's strength. Adding to this is that the +x fighter buffs tend to be rather low in level and increasingly constitute less of a drain on the cleric's power as they increase in level.

Buffing in combat does come down to 1 rounds worth, tucked somewhere into the first 3 rounds. Divine power is a solid choice, followed by divine favour if to-hit% is required, or by righteous might, if the party is facing yet another large+ creature with improved grab. The low level/high stacking power of shield of faith & divine favour make great quicken spell options - quickened deflection defence & divine power makes a solid buff choice.

All the above occurs in a class with scrying, commune, divination and find the path. You can really abuse the heck out of those spells to increase the odds of getting the jump - fully buffed - on your foes.

The core cleric is indeed OMG.
 

Aeric

Explorer
I've played more than my fair share of clerics, and my spell preparation has always been purely supportive: Protection from Evil, Resist Energy, Delay Poison, etc. I never prepare anything that isn't designed to heal or otherwise remove negative effects from other PCs because that's how I've always viewed the role of the cleric. I've always been afraid of running out of spells just when the party needs my healing the most.

As far as buffs are concerned, when you only have a few spells per day, I am loathe to spend 5-6 of those spell slots on Bear's Endurance (for example) in order to individually buff each member of the party. In that regard, the Mass version of those spells was the best thing to come along for the cleric since divine metamagic feats.

So maybe I'm Doing It Wrong, but my clerics are always designed as second-string fighters with healing abilities. In that role, they are anything but overpowered.
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
joshjurg said:
Frankly, I am surprised that many DM's sit idly by as pc clerics buff themselves. I can understand one or maybe two, but more than that usually draws a lot of enemy attention in my neck of the woods.
And that's at the heart of the matter. What you're saying here is suggesting that the DM always target the cleric first because he has obviously the biggest risk.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
I feel the same way about having chosen to play a sword & board warrior instead of the 2 handed type. Sadly 3E manages to make being underpowered so easy.
 

Archimedes314

First Post
Aeric said:
So maybe I'm Doing It Wrong, but my clerics are always designed as second-string fighters with healing abilities. In that role, they are anything but overpowered.

That's kind of like saying Pun-Pun is balanced as long a you play him as a basket-weaving specialist.

As to the topic at hand, I think squee hit the nail on the head. As he and others have said, even in core the cleric is extremely versatile, which if smartly played allows him to steal other classes thunder. Without splatbooks he's not mechanically overpowered to such a degree that designing an encounter that is challenging for him but not deadly for the rest of the party is impossible, but he is a good enough warrior to make the fighter feel like the cleric is usurping his position.

Oh and:
Storme said:
I just don't see it.

I can't see how any cleric of equal level would survive more than a round against my 14th level wizard who has so many things he could do to him with no save...let alone Globe of Invulnerabiltiy and other Cleric Gimping effects. The cleric might take out a Fighter after a long, hard battle though...I'll give him that.

Sorry...I just don't see it.

Deathmatches are a very poor method of assessing class balance.
 

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