OMG: The Core Cleric

[Timespike]

The thing about Clerics and Druids being stronger than other classes is not that they require some special build to make them badass. They are badass because they are inherently versatile.

Clerics especially since they are able to wear heavy armor and use metal shields. They buff the party before combat, wade into melee combat and take damage beside the fighters, step back and cast offensive spells, then heal the party up when the combat is done. And if you come across some undead, forget about it. They can even sweet-talk the mayor into upping the party's reward. The only thing they can't do is disable traps and pick locks.

So you don't have to optimize clerics to make them rock. Similarly, there's no real trick to optimizing druids. If you are somewhat smart with feat selection you will be engaged in every part of the game, something that will make everyone jealous.

Or grateful they've got you along. I once played in a game with a particularly harsh GM who banned all magic items and item creation feats entirely and forced everybody to start at level 1. We got a new player when we were around level 5. I was able to pour enough buffs onto a first-level human barbarian that he was able to keep up with the rest of the party until he got some more levels. Both the player & character loved me. You can be "selfish" as a cleric and buff yourself up and you'll do okay. Or you can make everyone else around you awe-inspiring and keep them alive and watch as they drive your enemies before them. At higher levels you can manage both at once.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Or you can make everyone else around you awe-inspiring and keep them alive and watch as they drive your enemies before them.

Having given this general argument some thought over the last few days, I'd really like to see it rationalized.

I mean, as i understand it, this argument goes that the cleric can use an action to bull's strength the fighter and the strength enhanced fighter can then attack in that same round. This is therefore deemed as more efficient because it occurs within the same initiative cycle.

There is efficiency there, but is it really more efficient than the cleric using their action for something else?

I'm thinking this assertion needs to be backed up with some robust analysis before we can agree on it?

 

[ShadowX]

I actually don't see too many Cleric single target buffs that would be useful for any decently equipped fighter. I guess if the fighter planned his equipment around an assumption the cleric would buff him, then maybe you would have an argument. Otherwise all the best cleric buffs are either personal or group buffs. Furthermore, how can you advance the argument that clerics don't have time to buff themselves and buffing the fighter is a better move? If the cleric doesn't have time to buff then he can't buff the fighter either.

It only takes the use of Quicken Spell and the first round to get a cleric up to speed with short duration buffs. If DMM(Persistent) is available then it's even easier. By the way, I don't find DMM(Persistent) overpowered since it requires three feats and the often overlooked ability to turn undead 6 times. The latter requirement hinders a character the most unless you allow nightsticks to stack because you are looking at 3+4(starting ability)+4(nightstick)+3(Cloak of Charisma)+5(ability additions and tome of charisma) = 19 at level 20 if the character really strains for turn attempts. Are three persistent spells (more likely 2) really overpowered in this context?

I can't stress enough how the true power of clerics spring not from the buffs, but that after buffs they still have the most powerful class feature in the game: spellcasting. People that clamor for a fighter/mage character in the core books need look no further than the cleric, except the cleric can cast in armor and has automatic access to every spell.

The druid overshadows even the cleric because it doesn't even need time to buff. Just wildshape hours ahead of time into a creature that can outfight the fighter and still have a spell list that compares favorably to the wizards.