OMG: The Core Cleric

[FreeTheSlaves]

However, the number of people reporting that Cleric superstacks are a genuine campaign-harming issue is very small (to zero). I therefore conclude that this is rarely a real problem.

It is all about frequency.

If the Cleric pulls off a Divine Power Righteous Might smackdown and steals the show for 1 in 20 combats, I would call that the spice of life rather than a problem. If this happens for 1 in 5 combats, we probably have to do something about it.

I too do not claim that the cleric superstack is campaign stopping, but that says less about the stack and more about the willingness of friends to bend over backwards to keep their game alive and well. If holding back will keep the balance, then I'm all for it. I would, however, rather have the cleric class better balanced powerwise.

And to be fair, we're not talking about 3.0 haste imbalance, we're looking at something noticeable but still able to slip under the 3.5 radar.

We don't see the full power unleashed so often, but it is about 1 in 5. The rest of the time it's something conservative like, magic circle, divine power &/or divine favour.

I've not found that to be the case, and I've played a cleric all the way to 21st level. Buffing the high level party properly was usually the difference between a "win" and a "lose". If I had taken the time to simply buff myself instead, we would have had more in the "lose" column.

Oh I was talking more about the more regular +number buffs such as from magic vestment, greater magic weapon, shield of faith, bull's strength, bear's endurance, etc.. The kind of +X stuff that you really want be wearing & wielding when you're flat footed and hoping to survive to your turn.

We've only played to the mid level range (10th-12th party) and my paladin gets decent mileage only out of a few of the above mentioned cleric buffs. I don't think any reasonable person is saying that the party isn't stronger without level appropriate buffs. Rather, I think the cleric has enough mileage in their spell selection to go rather heavy on enhancing themselves.

 

[RigaMortus2]

As others have said...

You have a casting class, whose damage spells are (IMHO) just 1 notch below a Wizard, but they can wear plate armor (unlike a Wizard), they gave a Medium BAB (better than a Wizard) with buff spells that can make them have a good BAB like a Fighter AND they can cast healing spells (unlike most CORE classes).

How are they NOT the best?

 

[Delta]

I can't see how any cleric of equal level would survive more than a round against my 14th level wizard who has so many things he could do to him with no save...let alone Globe of Invulnerabiltiy and other Cleric Gimping effects. The cleric might take out a Fighter after a long, hard battle though...I'll give him that.

Is that how D&D is normally played? It's usually not an arena duel between PCs, it's a team-based offensive against a bunch of monsters. And in that context, a class that can bust heads, cast magical destruction, wear great armor, and heal everyone definitely has all the bases covered. And have access to every spell on the class list from day one.

In my 3E core-rules game I played a cleric (starting Con 4!) who was definitely the most powerful PC in the party. To me, the key was righteous might. Once you have that you almost have to use it in a big fight -- and if you're using that anyway you may as well carry other buffs like strength, constitution, etc., to help you even more. At least in those climactic fights, our cleric definitely mopped the floor up like no one else in the party. Not even close.

 

[Nail]

Oh I was talking more about the more regular +number buffs such as from magic vestment, greater magic weapon, shield of faith, bull's strength, bear's endurance, etc.. The kind of +X stuff that you really want be wearing & wielding when you're flat footed and hoping to survive to your turn.

....and again, those buffs are fine for the cleric, but they're even better when slapped on the Ftr or Rog.

For example, my Clr found mid levels (10th-15th) that putting buffs plus Shield Other on the Rog made the encounters go much more quickly and smoothly. The fact that I had converted all the party members to my religion didn't hurt either.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A druid is more of a lone wolf. While the cleric is most powerful in a group, the druid's abilities are not relative to whom she is with. She has the versatility of the cleric but can handle herself fine in any situation without preparation time.

IME for a low level Druid, it does not quite work out that way.

The problem is the Druid tend to have the crappiest AC in the party and her only highly reliable and flexible offensive takes 1 round to cast. That is a difficult combination, which really begs for teamwork.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

How are they NOT the best?

My answer: The best overall does not necessarily translate into the best at anything in particular. One is a measure of Resource Balance. The other is a measure of Dramatic Balance.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

....and again, those buffs are fine for the cleric, but they're even better when slapped on the Ftr or Rog.

Huh? Every player wants to have some basic self sufficiency for their character. You need to have something for when the cleric's actions are committed or you're are otherwise without their buffs.

That translates into the fighter already having a +X weapon, armour, shield, cloak, guantlets, etc... So when the cleric casts their buffs on the fighter (in this example) he therefore gets a diminished return, unless they deliberately forgo having magic equipment... :\

The Cleric on the other hand has their self sufficiency hard-coded into their class. They too need to be wary about being magic-less in emergencies, but they can rely on the fact that they will get the #1 attention of the cleric buffs.

Really, this angle of the discussion is more about where the cleric is going to prioritise their buffs. I don't think it is unreasonable for the player of the cleric to say like, "hey guys, my cleric is more the bash-em sort, and he's going to concentrate a bit of his power into making him do that." This approach doesn't need to exclude tending to the other characters needs, it takes a very self centred player to not recognise the wisdom of helping others to help themself. And when a cleric player does the above, in my experience, that can make the other warrior players say OMG not infrequently.

 

[Nail]

That translates into the fighter already having a +X weapon, armour, shield, cloak, guantlets, etc... So when the cleric casts their buffs on the fighter (in this example) he therefore gets a diminished return, unless they deliberately forgo having magic equipment... :\

No wonder you think the cleric should self-buff.....

Example: A Ftr 12 should have a weapon worth about 18,000 gp (~20% wealth). That's a +3 weapon. If the Ftr is smart, only one of those "plusses" is enhancement -- the rest are equivalent enhancements, like flaming, holy, etc.

Now enter the cleric. He can cast GMW of +3. So now the Ftr has an additional +2 enhancment he didn't have before.

Same thing with Armor and Shield, of course.

I don't think it is unreasonable for the player of the cleric to say like, "hey guys, my cleric is more the bash-em sort, and he's going to concentrate a bit of his power into making him do that." This approach doesn't need to exclude tending to the other characters needs, it takes a very self centred player to not recognise the wisdom of helping others to help themself.

Sure. ...and by doing so, the Cleric misses some excellent opportunities. YMMV.

 

[carmachu]

When I've *played* a cleric, I've always found buffing the rest of the party is much better than buffing myself. For one thing, it uses actions more effectively: I buff the fighter, then the Ftr goes and smashes things. ...And all of that happens during Round 1, rather than later.

Exactly. Better to buff and send the fighter off, then to waste time doing yourself. Its been working well in our party.

 

[pawsplay]

So, we've heard many times that the Cleric is the most powerful class in the game. There are plently of arguments against that position, but what are the arguments for the all-powerful Cleric?

Imagine, if you will, that we created a variant wizard. Suppose we traded in his bonus feats for an extra good save. Then we took away a couple of attack spells and gave him medium BAB.

Now that we're done balancing the class, let's go ahead and bump his hit die up once. No, twice. And let him cast in armor. Heck, let's give him heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency! Now let's give him special powers based on his deity. Finally, let's give him a nearly unique ability to repel those pesky undead (or command them if evil).

Oh, wait, forgot one last thing. Let's give him all the best heal spells in the game.

Just for comparison, look at the Duskblade. Even with full BAB and a decent spell list, and full casting, they had to give them special abilities for quick casting just to keep up. And they don't, not really.