OMG: The Core Cleric

[nittanytbone]

Maybe I'm a jerk, but when playing the cleric I rarely devote many resources or rounds to buffing fellow party members (with rare exceptions). I consider it each player's responsibility to (A) figure out how to survive (B) figure out how to be effective in combat and (C) how to do something out of combat. Teamwork comes in when generating synergy or when dealing with unique circumstances.

Generally, I am happy to provide a party-boosting buffs that help the whole team out, like a Bless or Prayer. If the entire party needs Resistance to Cold due to the WX or Endure Elements in a desert, sure, I'll do that.

If the fighter wants a Greater Magic Weapon every day, no way.

If someone wants personal buffs, then they can provide a scroll of the spell which I'm happy to cast for them or they can purchase a Pearl of Power, which I'll use to refresh my own GMW for their benefit. If they don't like it, then they can take Leadership and get a buff-bot cohort, spend their wealth on consumables, pay for NPC casting, or invest in some permanent magic gear. Most fighters end up picking up gear that won't stack with standard buffs anyways (your Resistance bonus cloaks of resistance; your Gauntlets of Ogre Power; etc).

Sometimes other players think that's selfish. However, ask that same Paladin if he's willing to loan you his holy mount, and generally he understands why you're being stingy with the per-day buffs.

Unquestionably, the cleric can easily be the strongest, most versatile core class in the game -- perhaps second only to the druid.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

No wonder you think the cleric should self-buff.....

Example: A Ftr 12 should have a weapon worth about 18,000 gp (~20% wealth). That's a +3 weapon. If the Ftr is smart, only one of those "plusses" is enhancement -- the rest are equivalent enhancements, like flaming, holy, etc.

Now enter the cleric. He can cast GMW of +3. So now the Ftr has an additional +2 enhancment he didn't have before.

Same thing with Armor and Shield, of course.

But what happens when:

1) The fighter gets caught alone?
2) The party is attacked with little warning?
3) A character gets struck by a (greater) dispel magic?
Your approach seems to undervalue the danger of the above situations.

We do do what you advocate, especially so when our characters were around level 8 (our wealth was too little to permanently replicate our buffs). However, the value of permanent magic really shows when these 'on the back foot' situations occur.

As an aside, the time argument against buffing yourself applies to the approach of buffing the party.

Regardless to the above, the real power-ups the combat cleric gets are personal spells. You can not easily share them.

These spells give: reach, fighter BAB & iterative attacks, stackable +10 strength, DR, 2 x CL in hps, size based grapple/sunder/bull rush resistance, easily stackable luck bonus, and a few other bits and pieces. In short, if you want to be cleric-warrior, you can. The quicken feat is especially useful to facilitate this build at around level 12, although I agree there is an argument for level 9.

Maybe I'm a jerk, but when playing the cleric I rarely devote many resources or rounds to buffing fellow party members...

I wouldn't call that being a jerk. I do see it as challenging an archetype of the cleric being a benevolent, and self sacrificing party member. Given the range of alignments and faiths open to the cleric class, and a small collection of highly impressive personal buff spells, I think 3rd edition is quite supportive of this play style.

 

[Sylrae]

Maybe I'm a jerk, but when playing the cleric I rarely devote many resources or rounds to buffing fellow party members (with rare exceptions). I consider it each player's responsibility to (A) figure out how to survive (B) figure out how to be effective in combat and (C) how to do something out of combat. Teamwork comes in when generating synergy or when dealing with unique circumstances.

Generally, I am happy to provide a party-boosting buffs that help the whole team out, like a Bless or Prayer. If the entire party needs Resistance to Cold due to the WX or Endure Elements in a desert, sure, I'll do that.

If the fighter wants a Greater Magic Weapon every day, no way.

If someone wants personal buffs, then they can provide a scroll of the spell which I'm happy to cast for them or they can purchase a Pearl of Power, which I'll use to refresh my own GMW for their benefit. If they don't like it, then they can take Leadership and get a buff-bot cohort, spend their wealth on consumables, pay for NPC casting, or invest in some permanent magic gear. Most fighters end up picking up gear that won't stack with standard buffs anyways (your Resistance bonus cloaks of resistance; your Gauntlets of Ogre Power; etc).

Sometimes other players think that's selfish. However, ask that same Paladin if he's willing to loan you his holy mount, and generally he understands why you're being stingy with the per-day buffs.

Unquestionably, the cleric can easily be the strongest, most versatile core class in the game -- perhaps second only to the druid.

In our games, when I run, nobody plays a healing cleric. Hell I don't play a healing cleric either. As for being EXPECTED to heal the party? Be neutral or evil. Take inflict. Become undead at the first possible opportunity. (That would be level 1 for us with a 1 level tradeoff - Cryptspawn (you gain the undead type, HD of d12 and dr based on level), Magic of Faerun. Nobody can ask you to heal them when you dont even HAVE heal. Meanwhile, you can heal yourself, your undead minions, and stomp your way through battle.

Course, I make Agility rogues without disable device, search, or open lock on a regular basis, and dump my points in combat abilities like tumble and jump, and maybe multi into swashy.

I don't always powergame, but I play characters that deviate from the norm and confuse the other players sometimes because I have different abilities than they expect.

Cleric is an amazingly versatile class.

Imagine, if you will, that we created a variant wizard. Suppose we traded in his bonus feats for an extra good save. Then we took away a couple of attack spells and gave him medium BAB.

Now that we're done balancing the class, let's go ahead and bump his hit die up once. No, twice. And let him cast in armor. Heck, let's give him heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency! Now let's give him special powers based on his deity. Finally, let's give him a nearly unique ability to repel those pesky undead (or command them if evil).

Oh, wait, forgot one last thing. Let's give him all the best heal spells in the game.

Just for comparison, look at the Duskblade. Even with full BAB and a decent spell list, and full casting, they had to give them special abilities for quick casting just to keep up. And they don't, not really.

This gives me an Idea. perhaps I'll make a Cleric who's a variant wizard, and one who's a variant fighter. Make the player pick.

I've already done that for the fighter. I made two classes with the same bonus featy type things mostly, but one for ranged and one for melee, and the archer is lighter and faster and more squishy. the tank can use a bow, but cant specialize in it.

 

[Voadam]

My answer: The best overall does not necessarily translate into the best at anything in particular. One is a measure of Resource Balance. The other is a measure of Dramatic Balance.

What can clerics be best at then?

Undead focused necromancy.

Undead fighting.

Healing

After buffing they can arguably be the best combatant.

Divinations, not as great on item IDs as wizards but can get great plot info from things like speak with dead, scry, etc.

Summoning, equal to conjurers and even though druids get tougher monsters celestial/fiendish cleric ones get DR and can pierce magical DR.

They can max out diplomacy and be the party face.

And as for dramatic spotlight, being a church champion can be a built in roleplay spotlight opportunity.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Imagine, if you will, that we created a variant wizard. Suppose we traded in his bonus feats for an extra good save. Then we took away a couple of attack spells and gave him medium BAB.

Now that we're done balancing the class, let's go ahead and bump his hit die up once. No, twice. And let him cast in armor. Heck, let's give him heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency! Now let's give him special powers based on his deity. Finally, let's give him a nearly unique ability to repel those pesky undead (or command them if evil).

Imagine, if you will, that we created a variant fighter, inspired by medieval religious-military orders. Suppose we gave him a smaller HD, inferior weapons, and no way to improve his Str on character creation. Then we gave him a Turn Undead ability and a small selection of defensive and healing spells that he wouldn't get until 2nd level. At higher levels, he'd never have spells with the power and versatility of wizard, and he wouldn't get the attack rolls or special maneuvers of the fighter. At least his saving throws were pretty good.

That's the cleric as I first encountered it in BD&D. I think D&D really went wrong by making the cleric a spellcaster on par with the wizard.

 

[Shin Okada]

Divinations, not as great on item IDs as wizards but can get great plot info from things like speak with dead, scry, etc.

One of a cleric in my playgroup has magic domain and got Spontaneous Domain (Magic) feat. Now, at 6th level, she can cast Identify 7 times (1 each in 2nd and 3rd level domain slot, then spontaneously changes other spells into Identify 5 times/day) per day off. For free! (without material component).

Now the party can IDs looted magic items without returning to a nearby town nor spending 100 gp each of MC.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I would not go so far as to call it "selfish" to use your class abilities in order to stand in harm's way side by side with the Fighter. Running into melee is often enough its own "reward", so to speak.

Nor will I generalize that the Cleric has any inherent obligation to spend the lion's share of his precious spells on others first.

But if the central point is the Cleric class is so minmaxilious, I stand by my argument that it is usually both more efficient and more versatile to make a habit of boosting the Fighter. And that goes double for the Druid.

 

[Sylrae]

Funny thought.

Lets ditch the wizards, fighters, barbarians, druids, bards, sorcerers, and rogues. From now on we can just play clerics and monk duelists. O.O

We will slaughter everything!

lol

 

[Claudius Gaius]

Well, the all-fighter type party didn't do well until they got an NPC healer, whom they proceeded to protect and enhance at all costs.

The all-mage party didn't last long, and wouldn't have even if they hadn't mostly blown each other up.

The all-thief party didn't do well even in stealth scenarios until they started dabbling in other abilities.

The all-cleric party did just fine. They were a bit light on skills, but a few enhancing items, boosting spells, and the one following a sneaky deity could handle most of what was needed along those lines.

Similarily, I've had groups get along fine without a mage, without a rogue, and without fighters. They have a really hard time without a cleric of some sort.

Clerics don't really need anybody else. Everybody else needs a cleric. Do you actually need any more power than that?

 

[green slime]

It was a cleric which won the inaugral "Game of Death" on these boards. The level was low, around 3rd, IRC, with the relevant gp value equipment for their level.

And that was inspite of some of the other players getting quite a few "gimmes": Non-PHB races, wands of 3rd level spells at a rebate because of fewer charges.