OMG! The PCs are murderers! Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh

[Joshua Randall]

I've run Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh many, many times. It often goes something like this:

* PCs investigate house, find tie to smugglers' ship.
* PCs board ship, fight smugglers.
* During fight, PCs find lizard men. "Lizard men! They're bad guys! Kill them!"
* After resting, PCs explore ship, find Oceanus the acquatic elf.
* Oceanus explains about the lizard men forming an alliance against the sahaugin.
* PCs glance at each other, tacitly agree not to mention what happened to the lizard men. "Uh, yeah, the smugglers must've killed them during the battle. Yeah, that's it."

Heh.

 

[Desdichado]

That's what you get for messing with player expectations. Everyone knows that how good-looking the NPC race is is a great gauge for how Good they are on an alignment axis!

 

[Rykion]

My players must be doing it wrong. They don't go around murdering people. They kill monsters and the occasional evil person who attacks them first.

 

[Oryan77]

Ya know, I might just do this.

If you do, let me know how your players react. I'm curious to know what a player would do with news like that.

Then 2 cops try to take a bribe from him at the scene and try to arrest him. This was illegal, so the PC went all Castle Law on them, too. The cops should have brought him in for questioning

I don't know of any law in any region that would ever justify a stranger in town killing 2 cops because he "claims" they bribed him after seeing him standing near a dead body and covered in blood.

And from my experience DMing, if a player is quick to kill a town guard like that, they usually attack the guards before the guards can even announce that they are taking them in for questioning (like this player did). I rarely see PCs obey law enforcement when they are being ordered around. People don't like to be told what to do by cops, and since it's a game, the players become stubborn and think, "I don't have to deal with this"...and they kill them

Heck, I had a player (turned out to be another problem player) once that was surrounded and ordered to hand over her weapons. She used a locked gauntlet and she flat out told me, "I would rather die than unlock the gauntlet and hand over my sword". I personally think that's very poor logic, but whatever. I almost had the NPCs grapple her and remove the gauntlet by chopping off her arm (which is what the NPCs would have done). But I knew if a player was this stubborn, I could only imagine how she'd react if I did that...so I didn't play the NPCs the way I should have and I did some lame attack that would allow her to escape.

 

[Rel]

"I would rather die than unlock the gauntlet and hand over my sword".

I strongly believe in catering to this sort of preference in my games.

 

[Oryan77]

I strongly believe in catering to this sort of preference in my games.

Oh, I do in my games too. But not because I find it "noble" & want to reward them for it. I only do it so I don't have to deal with any grief from that player. That line of thought boggles my mind. To me, it's as crazy as if I got pulled over by cops, got out of the car, and told them, "I'd rather die than drop my Grandfather's Luger." I don't care how precious it was to me, my life isn't worth less than some gear. There is only one way that situation will end, and that's by me getting shot by the cops. Law enforcement doesn't like to be disobeyed, I don't think they would be much different in a fantasy setting

 

[Rel]

Oh, I do in my games too. But not because I find it "noble" & want to reward them for it. I only do it so I don't have to deal with any grief from that player. That line of thought boggles my mind. To me, it's as crazy as if I got pulled over by cops, got out of the car, and told them, "I'd rather die than drop my Grandfather's Luger." I don't care how precious it was to me, my life isn't worth less than some gear. There is only one way that situation will end, and that's by me getting shot by the cops. Law enforcement doesn't like to be disobeyed, I don't think they would be much different in a fantasy setting

You might be misinterpreting me. I meant that I'd kill off that character.

 

[Oryan77]

You might be misinterpreting me. I meant that I'd kill off that character.

Oh....wow haha
I'm just so used to hearing people around here "take the high road", I assumed you meant you let the PCs have their way. You must have some good players then if you are able to do that without them yelling at you for an hour and emailing you for 2 weeks about it.

I could probably do that with my current players...they are good players. But I don't really see them taking it to that point to begin with, so I doubt I'd have to kill their PCs for disobeying the guards.

 

[Janx]

If you do, let me know how your players react. I'm curious to know what a player would do with news like that.

The "news of the consequences of PC actions" is a decent way to convey how a bad choice by PCs hurts others the PCs might like.

I don't know of any law in any region that would ever justify a stranger in town killing 2 cops because he "claims" they bribed him after seeing him standing near a dead body and covered in blood.

And from my experience DMing, if a player is quick to kill a town guard like that, they usually attack the guards before the guards can even announce that they are taking them in for questioning (like this player did). I rarely see PCs obey law enforcement when they are being ordered around. People don't like to be told what to do by cops, and since it's a game, the players become stubborn and think, "I don't have to deal with this"...and they kill them

Heck, I had a player (turned out to be another problem player) once that was surrounded and ordered to hand over her weapons. She used a locked gauntlet and she flat out told me, "I would rather die than unlock the gauntlet and hand over my sword". I personally think that's very poor logic, but whatever. I almost had the NPCs grapple her and remove the gauntlet by chopping off her arm (which is what the NPCs would have done). But I knew if a player was this stubborn, I could only imagine how she'd react if I did that...so I didn't play the NPCs the way I should have and I did some lame attack that would allow her to escape.

First off, who's assuming the PC was a stranger. Oh yeah, you're the OP.

Second off, in both your stories, it sounds like you are approaching the PCs with guns out and in a threatening manner. And you wonder why they go berserk and kill the cops?

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The PCs are the hammer. They are likely to solve every problem the same way, especially any problem that looks like a direct threat to their freedom.

Pretend the PCs are a special type of citizen. Kind of like the retarded kid with adamantium claws for fingers. For the most part, they're helpful, setting up chairs, and carrying the milk tray for all the kids to share. But now and then, the school bully gets a hair-brained idea to pick on them, or another kid. Next thing you know, you got disemboweled bully splayed out all over the classroom. As a teacher, you got a mess to clean up. However, only an idiot 1st year teacher will get on Slicey's case. Because he's a freaking death machine, and you don't piss off the well intentioned death machine. You speak in a calm voice, and get the blood cleaned off his claws at the sink. At no point do you try to man-handle Slicey or point out how he handled it was wrong. Because you like your bowels to be intact by the end of the school day and you have 1 less bully to deal with.

If the PCs are not STARTING crimes, let them get away with it. Especially if you don't want the game to be a PC's are criminals campaign. When NPCs try to do a bad thing to the PCs, expect the PCs to kill them. Just like Slicey would.

 

[Oryan77]

First off, who's assuming the PC was a stranger. Oh yeah, you're the OP.

In my game, the PC was a stranger, yes. But if the PC isn't a stranger, that makes killing the guards ok? The local authority would simply forgive the PC because he claims the guards bribed him? Bribing justifies murdering? Good thing it wasn't a child stealing bread from the PCs rations. If a guard in town can't even defend his actions to the town without Judge Dredd sentencing him to death, then it must really suck being a working class citizen.

Second off, in both your stories, it sounds like you are approaching the PCs with guns out and in a threatening manner. And you wonder why they go berserk and kill the cops?

Two unarmed guards (I made it clear that they did not have weapons drawn) trying to get ahead in life by bribing is a life threatening situation for the PC? They deserve to die for trying to sucker a guy into giving a few gold coins? I'm not so sure the church would approve of their good aligned cleric murdering the local law enforcement for that reason.

Pretend the PCs are a special type of citizen. Kind of like the retarded kid with adamantium claws for fingers.

I like your anology, it's pretty funny. But....

At no point do you try to man-handle Slicey or point out how he handled it was wrong.

we do lock them up in prison or in a mental institute. Which is where a lot of PCs actually belong if we played D&D to the same standards as what society would do in real life. We definitely don't keep the kid in class and tell everyone else, "Just don't upset him and you'll be fine".