D&D 2E On AD&D 2E

[James Gasik]

I didn't think to check Demihuman Deities, since I was operating under the assumption that those writeups were "powered up" to meet the standards of Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons, where spec priests use their own bespoke xp chart because they get cool features at every other level it seems, lol.

I could be wrong though; I haven't read half the Realms books I own.

The Yondalla thing is just weird, but sometimes I've noticed they italicize things that have a specific meaning when italicized (that they are referring to a spell); one of the gods had "heal 1hp/level after battle" or something like that, and I was like "now someone could look at that and think they get the benefits of a heal spell, other than the amount of healing" since there's precedent for granted powers that say "works like this, but...". If a power doesn't a use limit, the default is that it's one use per diem, but sometimes that doesn't make any sense, lol.

So while I'm assuming they mean shield the spell, which is the most likely option, it's possible that they meant something else entirely. Also, occasionally priests get spell powers at some weird levels; Dumathoin I think grants friggin' stoneskin at level one, which is just busted, lol.

I think you have the right of it with Fu Hsing, there's another god who specifies that they give their priests the ability to ignore components when casting spells. I kind of wish they had offered guidelines for creating POSM somewhere; generally more powerful gods grant more spheres, regardless of granted powers, but some granted powers are off the hook; Anhur gives out multiple attacks per melee, another War God gives Fighter Thac0, some gods give out +1 to a stat or even just say "here, have an 18", and Sif has the most amusing granted power. At level 10, you go directly to level 11, do not pass go, but do collect the required xp (I hope)!

Then you get deities who are like "uh, here's your spheres, weapons and armor. No granted powers, get out of here."

 

[Voadam]

Actually all my diving through SOSM/SP's has led me to some odd questions I don't think there are answers for. Here's a few:

Keep em coming, this is fun and those are good finds.

I think you meant PoSM for priest of specific mythoi.

Speaking of PoSM and SP, there is a direct link between the two terms. I think Forgotten Realms Adventures (March 1990) is the first use of specialty priest as a term (and prominently, FRA Chapter 2 is titled Gods and Their Specialty Priests which is the header throughout the chapter) and it says:

Clerics of various deities in the Realms have long received special favors, abilities, and powers as a result of their devotion to a particular divinity. These 'specialty priests' have been more in tune with the needs and aims of their gods and tended to reflect more of their gods basic temperament than the standard AD&D® game priest (called a cleric). The cleric was better known and his spells and abilities common knowledge among the followers of the various gods, but the specialty priest reflected more of the gods philosophy and the areas the god watched over or represented.
The most common type of specialty priest is the druid, as described on page 35 of the Players Handbook. The druid is a specialty priest worshipping those powers which control naturein the Realms, this portfolio is spread among a number of deities, including Chauntea, Eldath, Mielikki, and Sylvanus. All these gods have druids as followers. Some in addition have specialty priests whose abilities are more tailored to the individual gods.

Interestingly Legends & Lore came out later in August 1990 and did not use the term.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Another issue is that while POSMs are great from a world-building perspective, they kind of suck from a game balance/design POV. The job of the cleric is to heal and protect, and fight a little bit. Many POSMs can't do that. In that respect, 5e's clerics work better, as they have the core cleric functions as part of the base class, and then a domain on top of that adding additional abilities. I'd probably prefer to move some more abilities to the domains or some other optional part (there's really no reason for control water to be a regular cleric spell, for example), but it's fine as written.

Yeah, that is a huge problem, and one I think everyone solved with one or more house rules (or just not playing clerics without healing and maybe necromancy* spheres). That said, it really is kinda on-brand for 2e -- 'Here are a bunch of options. No, we don't know if you want them all, but they kinda sound like things people will want. Are they balanced against each other and the existing options? No way. Are most of them really playable in the base game where you're still up against ogres and dragons and creatures that need specific pluses to hit and so on? Super no. Can you make selections which really are unplayable in most games? Absolutely. However, that's your call and now you have more options and we trust you to figure it out. Have fun!'
*depending on whether in-team raise dead was considered mandatory

"Sprawling mess" pretty much describes the whole of 2e, IMO.

Yep. Or "delightful sprawling mess" if one prefers.

 

[James Gasik]

Keep em coming, this is fun and those are good finds.

I think you meant PoSM for priest of specific mythoi.

Speaking of PoSM and SP, there is a direct link between the two terms. I think Forgotten Realms Adventures (March 1990) is the first use of specialty priest as a term (and prominently, FRA Chapter 2 is titled Gods and Their Specialty Priests which is the header throughout the chapter) and it says:

Clerics of various deities in the Realms have long received special favors, abilities, and powers as a result of their devotion to a particular divinity. These 'specialty priests' have been more in tune with the needs and aims of their gods and tended to reflect more of their gods basic temperament than the standard AD&D® game priest (called a cleric). The cleric was better known and his spells and abilities common knowledge among the followers of the various gods, but the specialty priest reflected more of the gods philosophy and the areas the god watched over or represented.
The most common type of specialty priest is the druid, as described on page 35 of the Players Handbook. The druid is a specialty priest worshipping those powers which control naturein the Realms, this portfolio is spread among a number of deities, including Chauntea, Eldath, Mielikki, and Sylvanus. All these gods have druids as followers. Some in addition have specialty priests whose abilities are more tailored to the individual gods.

Interestingly Legends & Lore came out later in August 1990 and did not use the term.

Yes, POSM, sorry, that's what I get for only having 4 hours of sleep, lol. It's damn hot all of a sudden where I live and the A/C is on the fritz, so hard to sleep. And yes, the goofy priests of different Gods are interesting to read about.

The handling of Druids itself is interesting; some specialty priesthoods say "as Druids, but extra stuff", again, the Complete Priest's handbook has this strange idea that Druids are weaker than Clerics, and brings up it's goofy xp chart as a way to buff weaker priesthoods (even though the precise moments when Druids are higher level than Clerics vary).

And as an aside, some Gods support Shamans, who are simply a weaker class than any sort of priest. The Forgotten Realms adds additional divine casters to muddy the waters.

Back to weird gods:

Legends and Lore- page 95 gives us Osiris, who must honor the dead and the places in which they rest. No priest of Osiris can ever take part in or condone the looting or violation of a grave, the removal of treasure from a fallen body (hey, this is D&D, right?), or any similar action. Right, ok, Osiris is about treating the dead with respect.

Granted Powers: necromancy Wizard spells are priest spells. Animate Dead has double effectiveness. Wow, we've come a long way, since Animate Dead is now SUPER EVIL to use, lol.

Page 97- Nephythys gives us this doozy. At level 10, her priests can never lose at a gambling game. Period. What happens if two of her priests gamble against each other? Or find a Deck of Many Things?

Page 100- Horus! His priests are PALADINS! CHAOTIC Good Paladins! That's something we won't see again until 3e! But wait! They aren't bound to avoid chaotic behavior (and it doesn't say jack about what happens if they act Lawfully, lol). And...they cast spells as priests (though with only major access to All, Combat, and Sun, with Minors in Guardian, Healing, Necromantic, and Protection). They turn Undead, but as a Priest 5 levels lower.

Page 108- I mentioned this one before. Uranus allows his level 10 priests to cast without V,S, or M components. I don't think any of their spells (astral, combat, protection, minor: divination, healing) have costly components, but if they did, yikes!

Also on this page, Gaea, a variant Druid!

Joined by Artemis on page 112 (I would have made her priests Rangers or something...)

Hermes (page 115) might be THE Fighting-Monk God; you eventually get natural AC 0 by level 10 (but it's a reduction to AC, so works with Bracers of Defense, yikes!), and at level 10 you get permanent Haste (well at least for movement)!

Only to be joined by Idun (page 182), who gives out a natural AC 5 at level 2, and keeps her priestesses 18 forever!

And last, for now, Aegir (page 178). All of his priests have to be a ship captain...not sure how you do that at level 1, but ok! And they are SINGLE CLASSED FIGHTERS who can cast priest spells (though only All, Weather, and Minor: Divination and Guardian, so not great), and are merely limited to non-metal armor!

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah, that is a huge problem, and one I think everyone solved with one or more house rules (or just not playing clerics without healing and maybe necromancy* spheres). That said, it really is kinda on-brand for 2e -- 'Here are a bunch of options. No, we don't know if you want them all, but they kinda sound like things people will want. Are they balanced against each other and the existing options? No way. Are most of them really playable in the base game where you're still up against ogres and dragons and creatures that need specific pluses to hit and so on? Super no. Can you make selections which really are unplayable in most games? Absolutely. However, that's your call and now you have more options and we trust you to figure it out. Have fun!'
*depending on whether in-team raise dead was considered mandatory



Yep. Or "delightful sprawling mess" if one prefers.

Basically yes. 2e promises that you can make whatever character you feel like, from a huge list of potential options. It NEVER promises that the end result will be playable, lol. You get to learn that the hard way, and try better next time!

Like the time I was hooked on the Castlevania NES games and I literally made a Fighter specialized in whips. Pro Tip: do not specialize in whips!

 

[James Gasik]

Haha, I'm blind, disregard post.

 

[James Gasik]

So I did find something interesting in the Planescape setting. Tieflings and Aasimar can be multi-classed Priests (not Clerics). Air Genasi, however, can Priests or multi-classed Clerics (and it is called out that Air Genasi Priests cannot be Druids), but Water Genasi can be multi-classed Fighter/Priests (but can also not be Druids).

So by the publishing of this setting, it would appear that Priests can be Clerics or Druids unless otherwise stated. If your race allows Clerics, it allows Priests (which should include Druids unless otherwise stated?), but if your race allows multi-classed Clerics, that doesn't automatically mean you can be a multi-classed Priest, you have to be specifically given that option.

I think.

If this is so, however, that does make for some interesting options if Tieflings or Aasimar are allowed in a game:

 

[Voadam]

So I did find something interesting in the Planescape setting. Tieflings and Aasimar can be multi-classed Priests (not Clerics). Air Genasi, however, can Priests or multi-classed Clerics (and it is called out that Air Genasi Priests cannot be Druids), but Water Genasi can be multi-classed Fighter/Priests (but can also not be Druids).

So by the publishing of this setting, it would appear that Priests can be Clerics or Druids unless otherwise stated. If your race allows Clerics, it allows Priests (which should include Druids unless otherwise stated?), but if your race allows multi-classed Clerics, that doesn't automatically mean you can be a multi-classed Priest, you have to be specifically given that option.

I think.

If this is so, however, that does make for some interesting options if Tieflings or Aasimar are allowed in a game:
View attachment 282402View attachment 282403

Interesting.

Priest and wizard are the class groups. Clerics and druids and priests of specific mythoi/specialty priests are types of priests. Mages and specialist wizards are different types of wizards. The PH uses specific classes only in its multiclass discussion and not class types.

So if it says a new race can be a priest I would expect it to be able to be a cleric, druid, or specialty priest unless otherwise specified.

By saying that tieflings can be multiclassed wizards it seems to be an exception to the baseline PH multiclassing general rule.

"Specialist wizards cannot be multi-class (gnome illusionists are the exception to this rule). The required devotion to their field prevents specialist wizards from applying themselves to other classes. Priests of a specific mythos might be allowed as a multi-class option; this will depend on the nature of the mythos as determined by the DM."

 

[James Gasik]

I didn't even notice that part. I'd just say the writer made a mistake and called Mages Wizards because, well, pretty much everyone did, at which point you could say they meant Cleric not Priest, but then you have both the Air Genasi and the fact that Aasimar can be Druids (it's not stated in their writeup, but at the end of the races section where it discusses level limits for the various races- curiously, this is where you find out Tieflings can't be Druids, something that isn't stated in the Planescape boxed set where the race first appears).

The idea that someone could be a multiclassed Invoker, Wild Mage, or Elementalist doesn't bother me, I'm shocked that wasn't an option for some races already.

The only thing that I can think of is that since Planescape is a "meta setting", this was more done in case you wanted to mix rules from different settings, like allow players to be Priests from Legends and Lore, Faiths and Avatars, Shamans, Crusaders, Spellsingers, or what have you. Though in that case, the fact that, say, Harpers, Shadowwalkers, and Psionicists got left out seems like an oversight.

Psionicists especially; some 1e Planar creatures had Psionics, and The Complete Psionics Handbook made sure to give some of them those powers back- but after Dark Sun, there's barely a mention of Psionicists existing anywhere. Surely more races with Psionic ability exist, and races other than Dwarves and Halflings can be multi-classed Psionicists?

 

[DammitVictor]

A delightful sprawling mess. One of the reasons I argue that prospective AD&D DMs should look over the races and classes at their disposal, and the race/class limits, and tailor them according to the campaign/setting they want to run. A little effort here at the start of a game can pay amazing dividends over the course of a long and storied campaign.