On completely artificial restrictions

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
Awarding "scores" that mean absolutely nothing can be a good reward?

Fate Points are part of gameplay and provide bonusi. Not earning them means being weaker, so it makes the incentive more "winning" oriented.

If Fate Points were completely unused, earning them would be an optional endeavour. There's no reward for suffering, so it must be chosen for it's own sake. Makes it less cold and more expressive — achieving a high score can itself be a form of statement.
 

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the Jester

Legend
IMHO you are still conflating the mechanical resolution system with the fiction. Suppose the grid doesn't represent the world AT ALL. In fact let's use poker hands instead. The players play a hand of 5 card draw and the winner gets to describe one move in the fiction. At some point one player has all the chips and they win. Now describe how you beat your opponent.
But talk about breaking immersion. That would be even worse for keeping your head in your character's than the chess move thing, at least for me.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
Several different kinds of points (?) that are awarded for different things.

Maybe traits could have a tracker attached to them. As an example, a Fate-like character
  • *Detective down his luck
  • *Crippling alcohol addiction
  • *Ties to the Rose sindycate
could be tracking how many times each of those aspects is invoked and compelled, separately.
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
Several different kinds of points (?) that are awarded for different things.

Maybe traits could have a tracker attached to them. As an example, a Fate-like character
  • *Detective down his luck
  • *Crippling alcohol addiction
  • *Ties to the Rose sindycate
could be tracking how many times each of those aspects is invoked and compelled, separately.
Playing a character like that for five years I feel would get me down.
 


dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
What kind of traits would you be interested in, then? And, more importantly, regardless of the kinds of traits, would this mechanic be appealing, and why or why not?
Usually I want more, not super anything, though at least competent, I'm not a big fan of leveling and prefer just to play in the sweet spot. Probably Why I play a lot of Traveller, and Call of Cthulhu; if mechanics can suit that, and characters are developed through story, I am happy.
 

pemerton

Legend
A game, that doesn't have a continuous fiction. It's played in short scenes that have only vague relation to each other, the characters are more or less the same, but nothing necessarily has long-term consequences.

Two lovers can have a bitter break up in one scene, and then be happily in love again in the next scene five (real) minutes after. The setting can change, they can be elves one moment and space cowboys next.

Gameplay? Gentle timer (that is audible, but doesn't draw that much attention to itself), like "each scene is played for 5 minutes"?i Mixing-and-matching durations?

Prescribed scenario? Like, "each scene must be about break up"? More freeform?
This made me think of In A Wicked Age.

There's no prescribed scenario, but the oracles provide framing. It has a longer time-lag than you describe; but the moving back and forth in time and place; with characters on an "owe list"; seems like a possible starting point.
 


Alternative title: "Well, it makes sense" makes no sense

This is a continuation of my musings on "disconnected mechanics" in another thread, but you don't have to dig that stuff up. Maybe I'm talking about completely obvious things, but the last few months I feel like my whole paradigm is cracking and I'm seeing everything about the hobby in a new light.

So.

By "artificial restrictions" I mean rules that make no sense from the "in-fiction" point of view. E.g.: you can only move on a square grid and can't move diagonally; you can hold either a flashlight or a gun; etc. Well, what I'm gonna talk about applies to allowances (permissions?) that make no sense as well (like being able to carry a whole arsenal... somewhere and pull out any weapon in a split second), but restrictions are easier to reason about. I'm an Easterner, we don't do all this "freedom" stuff here.

Capital G gamers often frown upon being forbidden from doing things a real person in the game world would be able to do, and doubly so in TTRPGs. Long story short: it's a damn mistake. If this restriction was there for a design reason (and, most of the time, it was), when removed, things get worse. I have heavy doubts that ID software couldn't ducktape a flashlight to guns in DooM 3, and when they finally did, well... The original version of DooM 3 is a much better game than BFG edition, precisely because it forces you to constantly choose between being able to see and being able to shoot. The lack of total, unrestricted freedom isn't a result of technological limitation. Games are defined by the rules, and all the cool, fun gameplay happens in the negative space between restrictions.

I think there's a lot of value to be derived from embracing the gaminess of games, especially in TTRPGs. I've had much, much more fun with 5E combat when I've ran a bunch of silly experiments with restricting movement and actions, that I've ever had with it on the either side of the screen -- and that enjoyment translated into other aspects of the process (like, y'know, characters, story, all that) that weren't even in the focus.

Experiment #1: characters (both PCs and NPCs) can only move like a queen in chess. Ranged attacks, similarly, can only be made if the target is on the same line horizontally, vertically or diagonally. The only way to move in a more complex way is to move then dash in other direction.

It made positioning much more important, allowing some massivebrain plays that would be completely pointless if every character could equally threaten a whole radius around them, thus making even simple combat encounters that would otherwise boil down to "I HIT HIM WITH MY SWORD" more engaging.

Experiment #2: there's a deck of cards, each representing a possible action in the base game (attack, dash, cast a spell, drink potion, etc.). When the initiative is rolled, everyone draws 3, and refills to 3 at the start of each their turn. At the end of the turn any number of cards can be discarded. When the deck is exhausted, the discard pile is reshuffled. If you play a card, you make an action written on it, otherwise you can only make a single attack (regardless of multiattack stuff) or dodge.

It was less cool than #1, but maybe that was because the cards themselves kinda sucked. It still added another layer of mindgames to the process, where everyone is mentally keeping track of opponent's cards.

Both resulted in more engaging combat with surprises (that weren't completely random) and some friendly trash-talking, which resulted in players taking more risks and being generally more excited, and that excitement spilled over to non-combat breather scenes. Cool plays and stupid blunders added to characterization of the, well, characters, and made at least me care about them a tad more.

So... Next time you decide to make a ruling because the existing rules make no sense, try to think about it from a more detached perspective.
Agreed wholeheartedly! Games should embrace their fictional side instead of shying away from it. I think this is why many classic games have endured in ways that the newer titles struggle with. In the past, there were many limits to game technology and complexity, so you had to come to grips with restrictions on the gameplay early on during development. Nowadays, as consumer electronics have astounding computing power and input versatility, developers haven't felt the same pressures, so they've come to forget that less limitations != a better game.

Both of your experiments are simply alternative restrictions on player movement. Of course, we're not limited to orthogonal grids, ortho-diagonal lines, or any other arbitrary movement scheme in the real world. At the same tme, however, no game system can presently capture the full range of movement in physical space.. This is readily apparent even in AAA titles, where turning your player still means spinning on an axis without moving a limb.

Even if games could replicate the elaborate feature set of real life, I don't think that would be desirable. Games are defined by a few key features: an objective, obstacles and goodies that disrupt or support the objective, and of course, a rule system. Without rules, you really don't have a game. Those mechanics unique to a game are the same mechanics that make it special. After all, isn't the point of a game to experience alternative, often simpler realities? I think writing rules that differ from what we see in the real world is a developer's best way to introduce that creativity that makes games entertaining.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
Agreed wholeheartedly! Games should embrace their fictional side instead of shying away from it. I think this is why many classic games have endured in ways that the newer titles struggle with. In the past, there were many limits to game technology and complexity, so you had to come to grips with restrictions on the gameplay early on during development. Nowadays, as consumer electronics have astounding computing power and input versatility, developers haven't felt the same pressures, so they've come to forget that less limitations != a better game.

Both of your experiments are simply alternative restrictions on player movement. Of course, we're not limited to orthogonal grids, ortho-diagonal lines, or any other arbitrary movement scheme in the real world. At the same tme, however, no game system can presently capture the full range of movement in physical space.. This is readily apparent even in AAA titles, where turning your player still means spinning on an axis without moving a limb.

Even if games could replicate the elaborate feature set of real life, I don't think that would be desirable. Games are defined by a few key features: an objective, obstacles and goodies that disrupt or support the objective, and of course, a rule system. Without rules, you really don't have a game. Those mechanics unique to a game are the same mechanics that make it special. After all, isn't the point of a game to experience alternative, often simpler realities? I think writing rules that differ from what we see in the real world is a developer's best way to introduce that creativity that makes games entertaining.
Welcome to the moon! Pretty cool view up here, innit?
 

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