D&D General On Grognardism...

[tetrasodium]

I don't see the need to split off a side discussion about rules comparisons. I can sum up my case pretty adequately here.

3e went a long way towards unifying D&D by unifying behind the basic "Most things you do are going to have you roll a D20 and add something and you are going to try to equal or beat a DC". This concept is actually separate from the idea of blank canvas space, but it's an important concept of why I say that 5e is the most rules light version of the game.

By removing the various subsystems of Old School and consolidating them you empower a player to gain system master easier (which speeds up gameplay) but also it allows a GM to improvise something while remaining within the bounds of challenges the party might encounter.

As a concrete example....let's say I want to include some undead in my adventure design. The party had a 9th level cleric. In am Old School game I would have to break out the turning chart to see what kind of undead the cleric could turn, destroy, or have no power over.

In 5e I don't have a codified chart, as any undead can be turned by any cleric. This frees me up as the GM to include, let's say a mummy for theme purposes" without fear it isn't going to work with the party.

I feel more empowered to improvise in a system that doesn't have those codified bits that limit things.

As another example, let's take the idea of a surprise round. In 5e it's very simple and relies entirely on GM fiat to decide if any person or thing is surprised. Then you run combat as normal and all the surprised beings can't take a tions on the first round. That's it...the entire rule.

I can't even begin to tell you the rule for surprise rounds in 1e, because we never used the actual rules when we played back in the day. I know it's an opposed d6 roll with I think mtiple rounds of surprise, but then you have classes that roll different dice and monsters that have different interactions....and it's kind of a mess.

Finally I'll point to something pretty basic, the weapon table. Weapons have reach values, initiative modifiers, different damage versus different sized foes, and even adjustments based on the AC of the opponent in 1e. 5e has nowhere near this comexity.

That bolded bit misses the problem even though you mentioned it in the underlined bit. As a DM in past editions you had more flexibility & dials you could crank, not so in 5e. take the 3.5 MM where you had a cr5 mummy & cr15 mummy lord along with cr4 allip xr9 bodak cd12 devourer cr2 ghost cr2 lacedon cr4 ghast cr almost anything lich template cr 14 mohrg cr3 shadow cr9 greater shadow cr7 specter cr almost anything vampire template cr4 vampire spawn cr4 wight cr5 wraith cr16 dread wraith nine different CRs of zombie ranging from cr1/2 to cr6 nine different CRs of skeleton ranging from cr1/3 to cr8.. etc

Some of those were templates that could be applied to any creature while the others could get a template to shift them thematically & have a challenge that fits where you want it while being called a mummy with whatever flavoring refluff that suits. "No I'm sure I can just do it because any undead can be turned by any cleric nerf me with gm fiat if you don't like it" is a serious negative not an improvement. Players are almost never going to be unhappy to find that something works better like having turning buffed to work on any undead no matter how long the list of cool boons you give... the same is not true of nerfs

 

[lingual]

I don't see the need to split off a side discussion about rules comparisons. I can sum up my case pretty adequately here.

3e went a long way towards unifying D&D by unifying behind the basic "Most things you do are going to have you roll a D20 and add something and you are going to try to equal or beat a DC". This concept is actually separate from the idea of blank canvas space, but it's an important concept of why I say that 5e is the most rules light version of the game.

By removing the various subsystems of Old School and consolidating them you empower a player to gain system master easier (which speeds up gameplay) but also it allows a GM to improvise something while remaining within the bounds of challenges the party might encounter.

As a concrete example....let's say I want to include some undead in my adventure design. The party had a 9th level cleric. In am Old School game I would have to break out the turning chart to see what kind of undead the cleric could turn, destroy, or have no power over.

In 5e I don't have a codified chart, as any undead can be turned by any cleric. This frees me up as the GM to include, let's say a mummy for theme purposes" without fear it isn't going to work with the party.

I feel more empowered to improvise in a system that doesn't have those codified bits that limit things.

As another example, let's take the idea of a surprise round. In 5e it's very simple and relies entirely on GM fiat to decide if any person or thing is surprised. Then you run combat as normal and all the surprised beings can't take a tions on the first round. That's it...the entire rule.

I can't even begin to tell you the rule for surprise rounds in 1e, because we never used the actual rules when we played back in the day. I know it's an opposed d6 roll with I think mtiple rounds of surprise, but then you have classes that roll different dice and monsters that have different interactions....and it's kind of a mess.

Finally I'll point to something pretty basic, the weapon table. Weapons have reach values, initiative modifiers, different damage versus different sized foes, and even adjustments based on the AC of the opponent in 1e. 5e has nowhere near this comexity.

Don't forget about speed factor

There were situations where actually tie-ing initiative was better than winning if you were using a dagger vs a two-handed sword.

Surprise was a complete mess. Something like you could do something per segment of surprise? Still love the ADnD campaign I'm still in though. We don't use half of the stuff in the DMG.

I don't know where those who hate 5E (might just be the same person in this thread) and claim that it is rules heavy are coming from.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

That bolded bit misses the problem even though you mentioned it in the underlined bit. As a DM in past editions you had more flexibility & dials you could crank, not so in 5e. take the 3.5 MM where you had a cr5 mummy & cr15 mummy lord along with cr4 allip xr9 bodak cd12 devourer cr2 ghost cr2 lacedon cr4 ghast cr almost anything lich template cr 14 mohrg cr3 shadow cr9 greater shadow cr7 specter cr almost anything vampire template cr4 vampire spawn cr4 wight cr5 wraith cr16 dread wraith nine different CRs of zombie ranging from cr1/2 to cr6 nine different CRs of skeleton ranging from cr1/3 to cr8.. etc

Some of those were templates that could be applied to any creature while the others could get a template to shift them thematically & have a challenge that fits where you want it while being called a mummy with whatever flavoring refluff that suits. "No I'm sure I can just do it because any undead can be turned by any cleric nerf me with gm fiat if you don't like it" is a serious negative not an improvement. Players are almost never going to be unhappy to find that something works better like having turning buffed to work on any undead no matter how long the list of cool boons you give... the same is not true of nerfs

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. You seem to be saying 3e has more dials than 5e, which I'm not arguing with....because I'm not talking about 3e at all in my post. I'm saying that 5e turning undead is a simpler rule than 1e turning because it's a unified system, not a stepped table of individual monsters.

If "dials for GMs and players" was the discussion then 3e probably has more than all the other editions combined due to the sheer amount of content. I'm comparing rules complexity between 1e and 5e.

 

[clearstream]

If you think RPG design peaked in the late 70s, what about that design speaks to you so strongly?

I'm likely a grognard. I wanted to say that I don't think RPG design peaked in the late 70s, and I wonder if it has even yet peaked now?

In each era I have seen games with novel and ofttimes influential ideas. There were such games in the 70s. There are such games now.

 

[Lanefan]

In my experience, the more accounting-heavy, gold-value treasure method they put in was one of the least-popular decisions made by the AL organizers. I understand its purpose, but it led to several AL tables ditching the AL rules for home games; the only tables that stayed AL had players who were planning to bring their characters to conventions.

Am I reading this right, that AL forces a treasury division method on its players/PCs rather than letting the PCs decide in character how to divide it?

Bleah!

 

[Lanefan]

I remember in ADnD, you actually rolled for your skills. Or secondary skill in the old DMG. Wanna be a pirate? Well you technically didn't have that choice.

Yep, still do this now; though on a much-expanded table from what 1e RAW gave us.

 

[tetrasodium]

Am I reading this right, that AL forces a treasury division method on its players/PCs rather than letting the PCs decide in character how to divide it?

Bleah!

It did in the past when goldfsrner type players could abuse the system as I described earlier. Now it doesn't even have one and just removes thst whole step with your levels so can get one of these

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. You seem to be saying 3e has more dials than 5e, which I'm not arguing with....because I'm not talking about 3e at all in my post. I'm saying that 5e turning undead is a simpler rule than 1e turning because it's a unified system, not a stepped table of individual monsters.

If "dials for GMs and players" was the discussion then 3e probably has more than all the other editions combined due to the sheer amount of content. I'm comparing rules complexity between 1e and 5e.

You missed the point but still swung back to describing it again. I used 3.5 monsters to illuminate something it more easily illustrated but had in common with 1e because that information is also more readily available. Your post I quoted earlier is clearly painting the bolded bits as an improvement 5e hss in the paragraph before and after the bolded section illustrating differences. That spin on things is backwards though

 

[Scott Christian]

I don't really have a question, but more of an invitation for discussion. If you think RPG design peaked in the late 70s, what about that design speaks to you so strongly?

I do have a lot of nostalgia for that Basic rulebook I had in the early 80s, but having played the game compared to a modem design my admiration for that system is entirely based on the nostalgia it represents. Descending AC, wizards with one spell a day and 4hp, puzzles mixing real world knowledge with character problem solving and "beating the adventure" versus "telling a good story" all are things I avoid in 2021.

One factor to consider is the groups people play with. Yes, there are those that like old school. But, a lot of the times, it's because it represents the "old groups" they used to play with. It has nothing to do with ruleset. It's like hearing a Foreigner song with old friends, and smiling, even though it is terrible (Double Vision anyone?). Nostalgia is powerful. You see the same thing with video games: The original Everquest is another example. People have really fond memories, but get them to play now, and the game mechanics drive them crazy.
I think almost everyone is reasonable in their understanding that the 1st edition or 2nd edition is simply different than 5e. But, again, I think it goes back to what groups they played with, not the actual rule system.

 

[billd91]

Am I reading this right, that AL forces a treasury division method on its players/PCs rather than letting the PCs decide in character how to divide it?

Bleah!

It doesn’t, really. During a session, any found items can be distributed as the group sees fit. After the session, all characters in the group have access to the found and kept items since they may be heading off to another event table with a completely different group of PCs the next time they play.