On homogeneity, or how I finally got past the people talking past each other part

[Hussar]

I find your phrasing a little odd... as if only those who don't like 4e can cause edition wars. This thread was pretty peaceful and interesting (and I found the views of both sides interesting) until a 4e fan came charging in all taking no prisoners and ready for a fight.

Meh, it happens on both sides of the street. I mean, look at the OP of the thread that started this one. It assumes at the outset that 4e is homogenous, that everyone agrees with that point of view and that we must do something to "fix" this problem since WOTC won't allow other people to fix it. Shock and surprise, people take a bit of offense to that.

... While the negative blasts flow both ways, the agreement that 3E has its redeeming points seems to be much fewer are farther between from the pro-4E side than the other way around. Noise to signal may drown out the difference, but I virtually never see 4E fans saying anything good about 3E.

That's because you almost never see 4e fans saying ANYTHING about 3e. Why would they? They don't play the game. Almost any commentary you do see from 4e fans regarding 3e are inresponse to 3e fans telling 4e fans how 3e does things so much better.

To put it another way, how many 3e fans did you see waxing poetic about how 1e or 2e did things?

 

[Piratecat]

That's because you almost never see 4e fans saying ANYTHING about 3e. Why would they? They don't play the game. Almost any commentary you do see from 4e fans regarding 3e are inresponse to 3e fans telling 4e fans how 3e does things so much better.

*snerk* As a moderator, allow me to disagree with you. We have an abundance of 4e fans who seem to believe that they'll enjoy their game more if they harshly criticize what's come before it. I don't entirely understand this attitude - I like every edition of D&D I've played - but it certainly occurs, and almost as much online as 3e fans criticizing 4e.

So, BryonD, allow me to buck the trend: I'm a fan of 4e, and I think there's an huge number of things 3e does as well or better. It's a fun game!

 

[Imaro]

Meh, it happens on both sides of the street. I mean, look at the OP of the thread that started this one. It assumes at the outset that 4e is homogenous, that everyone agrees with that point of view and that we must do something to "fix" this problem since WOTC won't allow other people to fix it. Shock and surprise, people take a bit of offense to that.

I didn't get that at all from the OP... he was commenting on how he had come to understand another's point in a different thread. He even states it's what he (as in him and no other) took away from the other post...

Ex. "At least that is what I have taken away from the discussion..."

How do you come to the conclusion he's doing anything other than stating his own opinions and thoughts.

That's because you almost never see 4e fans saying ANYTHING about 3e. Why would they? They don't play the game. Almost any commentary you do see from 4e fans regarding 3e are inresponse to 3e fans telling 4e fans how 3e does things so much better.

To put it another way, how many 3e fans did you see waxing poetic about how 1e or 2e did things?

Are you kidding? Before the Pathfinder separation I saw more than a fair share of trolling and attacking by 4e fans on PF/3.5 fans and their preferred game.

 

[Hussar]

Imaro - perhaps that explains it. I had no interest in Pathfinder, so never went into those threads.

Y'know, I wonder if that explains a lot of things. I don't go into threads for things I am not interested in or am not interested in playing. That would likely account for my skewed views.

Never mind, back to your original conversation.

 

[Reigan]

It seems to me that there has been an uplift of anti-4e postings on EN-World over the last few days. I thought the introduction on the PF subforum would have reduced them.

As anti-4e people won't listen when you point out the merits of 4e, 4e fans are going to turn their attention to their perceived flaws in 3e. Other things may well have been better in 3e but they usually had a knock-on effect of damaging the game elsewhere. Endless player choice may have been great but it damaged in-game play with class balance issues etc.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

It seems to me that there has been an uplift of anti-4e postings on EN-World over the last few days. I thought the introduction on the PF subforum would have reduced them.

As anti-4e people won't listen when you point out the merits of 4e, 4e fans are going to turn their attention to their perceived flaws in 3e. Other things may well have been better in 3e but they usually had a knock-on effect of damaging the game elsewhere. Endless player choice may have been great but it damaged in-game play with class balance issues etc.

The fact that you're clearly drawing a relationship between "anti-4e people" being these sinister trolls and "4e fans" just attempting to strike back for justice into the heart of the horribly flawed 3e, as well as maintaining an outlook that disliking 4e makes you a blind fool...

...On top of your "make love not edition war" sig...

...is hilarious.

 

[Fifth Element]

The fact that you're clearly drawing a relationship between "anti-4e people" being these sinister trolls and "4e fans" just attempting to strike back for justice into the heart of the horribly flawed 3e, as well as maintaining an outlook that disliking 4e makes you a blind fool...

A more charitable reading of the post..."4e fans are going to turn their attention to their perceived flaws in 3e"...is simply that the 4E fans will do this (as part of human nature), not that they are justified or right in doing so.

 

[Piratecat]

The fact that you're clearly drawing a relationship between "anti-4e people" being these sinister trolls and "4e fans" just attempting to strike back for justice into the heart of the horribly flawed 3e, as well as maintaining an outlook that disliking 4e makes you a blind fool...

...On top of your "make love not edition war" sig...

...is hilarious.

Enough. Don't put words in other people's mouths.

 

[Remathilis]

It seems to me that there has been an uplift of anti-4e postings on EN-World over the last few days. I thought the introduction on the PF subforum would have reduced them.

You assume all anti-4e people are Pathfinder fans. I can count a number of them here that dislike 4e and yet wouldn't be caught playing "d02"-era D&D (or any offshoot thereof". Some of these are the most vocal critics of BOTH games, IMHO.

 

[M.L. Martin]

You assume all anti-4e people are Pathfinder fans. I can count a number of them here that dislike 4e and yet wouldn't be caught playing "d02"-era D&D (or any offshoot thereof". Some of these are the most vocal critics of BOTH games, IMHO.

QFT. There are days, I admit, when it feels like these boards are divided into Paizo/PF/3E, 4E, and "old school" (which in practice means OD&D/1E/Moldvay-Cook BE) camps, and those of us who have yet to find a satisfactory alternative and are sympathetic to other models of play have to keep our heads down to avoid getting caught in the crossfire or shot as traitors to real D&D.

Personally, I'm looking for something with a 2E or later BECM/RC 'feel' but streamlined and more flexible mechanics, or what 3E could have been without the miniatures focus, the 'back to the dungeon'/neo-1E push, and the cultural emphasis on char-op and RAW. If C&C ever gets the CKG out to give a bit more crunch, that might be what I need . . .