On homogeneity, or how I finally got past the people talking past each other part

[BryonD]

That's because you almost never see 4e fans saying ANYTHING about 3e. Why would they? They don't play the game.

I'm sorry, but I just boggle at that.
I get decried as someone who mocks 4E players, and yet if you really look you will see that all of that comes from me pointing out the implications of what *some* 4E fans say about 3E.

Edit: to clarify: I'm certain you accurately describe the great majority of 4E fans. But that does not change the point.

 

[BryonD]

So, BryonD, allow me to buck the trend: I'm a fan of 4e, and I think there's an huge number of things 3e does as well or better. It's a fun game!

By all means, buck away!!!

I'll tell you a secret. I stole a house rule from 4E for my 3E game. But don't tell anyone. I have a reputation to protect.

 

[Greg K]

Personally, I'm looking for something with a 2E or later BECM/RC 'feel' but streamlined and more flexible mechanics, or what 3E could have been without the miniatures focus, the 'back to the dungeon'/neo-1E push, and the cultural emphasis on char-op and RAW. If C&C ever gets the CKG out to give a bit more crunch, that might be what I need . . .

Myself, I am looking for something
a) between 3e and 4e mechanically;
b) with 2e feel
c) 2e Handbook splat format (as opposed to 3e Complete Handbooks or 4e power format) and
d) 2e settings (Al Quadim, Dark Sun, Ravenloft);

3e with Unearthed Arcana and some third party products can get me close, but not quite there. A 4e Unearthed Arcana might get also get me close, but I would still need a DDI subscription or to purchase several books).

 

[C_M2008]

I'm not sure where/how to jump in here so I'm just going to state some criticisms and likes I have about 4e(and a bit about 3e), I generally like 4e if that's relevant at all.


Criticisms:
50/50 save mechanic-seems arbitrary. Sustain standard effects and until end of next turn or start of next turn effects would have worked just as well IMO.

combat is way too slow (both 3e & 4e).

messy multiclassing (both: one is too little, the other is too much).

Temp HP - annoying to track and being reusable at will can make some PCs too hard to take down.

Character creation is very samey:same process for each character even if you focus on different minutia.

lack of non-combat powers: I realize utilities are meant to fill this gap, but too many levels contain necessary combat orientated ones that you can't afford to grab the juicy non-combat ones. Ideally powers that can be used either way or do two things-Maybe "Ardourous Fire" does some ok fire damage to a single target if used that way but can be also used to "ignite the fires of passion" within someone and give you a bonus to RP(diplomacy?) with that person as an example.

Skill challenges: they don't work and feel like a mini-game, but I didn't like diplomacy/talky dice rolls in 3e either.

Too many powers (spells in 3e, 2e): I don't want to keep track of 10+ powers and abilities every fight (or RP), yes managing them can be a fun mini-game, but storing cards and referencing books and the table space it consumes aren't worth it. A few different powers with various add-ons to change or manipulate them to do different things (a single target attack spell could have various range, extra target and keyword modifications available). Ideally the only powers would be at-will and you'd come up with cool uses, obviously a different resource metric would be required. (3e power point/psionics system might work for this)

Not enough static conditional abilities: the action surge triggers for paragon paths are awesome and add nice flavour and definition to several classes/PPs. More situational abilities(triggering on things other than APs - conditions, positioning, situations would work)

Likes:
Balanced, leveled playing field

Death saves/negative HP/death mechanic - has increased lethality of games to what I consider the "sweet spot".

Healing surges/second wind - every class being able to heal a little bit makes walking band-aids (the boringist job in D&D) less necessary and makes being a "leader" more enjoyable

Variety of cool moves for melee combat classes - long overdue

Loss of save or die/suck - arbitrarily being killed based on one die roll is not fun(it may be "realistic", but it sucks).

Unified AC/defense/to hit system (well done in 3e and ported nicely to 4e)

Conditions - Like the implementation, easy to follow and use

Diseases - simple but flavourful mechanic

Action Points(3e & 4e): I liked the 3e version (which is now the deva racial power) and also like the 4e version of extra actions.

As stated above conditional abilities are cool.

Quick DM prep time: more time for stories and intrique less for preping combats.

Page 42: many people were doing this already, but still a useful tool.

Fixes:
I think I'm basically throwing 3e, 4e and Hero system in a blender at this point........not sure how to get what I want.........

Any advice or comments would be awesome.

 

[Wik]

QFT. There are days, I admit, when it feels like these boards are divided into Paizo/PF/3E, 4E, and "old school" (which in practice means OD&D/1E/Moldvay-Cook BE) camps, and those of us who have yet to find a satisfactory alternative and are sympathetic to other models of play have to keep our heads down to avoid getting caught in the crossfire or shot as traitors to real D&D.

Personally, I'm looking for something with a 2E or later BECM/RC 'feel' but streamlined and more flexible mechanics, or what 3E could have been without the miniatures focus, the 'back to the dungeon'/neo-1E push, and the cultural emphasis on char-op and RAW. If C&C ever gets the CKG out to give a bit more crunch, that might be what I need . . .

This.

We our gaming soulmates, my friend.

I'm looking at d6 Fantasy right now, to see if it'd capture that sort of "Feel". one of these days, I might just go back to a modded BECMI.

 

[Mistwell]

While I prefer 4e, I find that 3e did many things better, and I would be happy to play another 3e game with the right group.

First, I found character creation more interesting in 3e. I'd sit around with a huge stack of books, and piece together builds up to the mid-high levels. It would take days, weeks even, to get things right in my mind. It literally took months to work out my gnome illusionist shadowcaster in 3e, and I loved doing it, even though I knew the odds were against my ever playing the gnome. And while I can still do that somewhat in 4e (I just did with a Paladin I have no intention of ever actually playing), it definitely isn't a process of joy that can last weeks or months. I was done in a couple of reads of the relevant sources (though it was also fun).

Second, I found there was more opportunity for crazy magic things to happen in 3e, which was fun. A spellcaster would find some creative new way to use Rope Trick or Silent Image in combat. That still happens a bit in 4e with Wizard cantrips for example, but not as often.

Third, I found the books on average were more interesting to read in 3e. Now again, there are great books to read in 4e, like Open Grave. But on average, if I picked up a random 3e book and turned to a random page, odds are the text on that page would be more interesting to read (and read again) than the same activity with a random 4e book.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head. Of course, I could list other things I like more about 4e, but this isn't the post for that. I loved 3e. Some of the best game sessions I ever played were with 3e. I am happy 3e continues to live on through Pathfinder, and I'd love to play a game of 3e / Pathfinder again some day.

Liking 3e, and liking 4e, are not mutually exclusive things. And, you can like one more than you like the other, without disliking either of them.

 

[Betote]

You'll forgive me for talking about how to remove 4e's homogeneity on this thread, I hope

First of all, there's nothing wrong with a power-based system. That's not the problem; the problem is that everyone seems to access and recharge those powers in the same way. Let's look at past editions' spells: they were the same "system" (fire and forget, levels, and so on), but each class added their flavor on top of that:
* Wizards had their spellbooks, and then decided in advance which spells they prepared each day. They could specialize in one or another school, and that changed the kind of spells they could choose from.
* Clerics had access to all the spells of the class, and they decided in advance which ones they prepared each day. They also had domains which added some more available spells.
* Sorcerers had a limited range of spells known, but they didn't need to prepare them in advance, and had more quantity of lower-level spells than wizards.

I don't see why something like that couldn't be ported into 4e. Wizards could be able to choose their at-wills and encounter powers (not just dailies) each day, Fighters could burn healing surges to recharge their powers, Sorcerers could spend a daily to recharge their encounters, Rangers could recharge when killing their quarry, and so on.

And I don't think it's all written on stone, either. If PHB2 could "update" the way some PHB1 things worked, there's no obstacle for PHB3 to include a chapter on "Power recharge by source/role/class".

I think something like this would remove part of the perceived sameness of 4e. It might work for me, at least. And that's an important thing, because I'm aching to play in the new Forgotten Realms or the next iteration of Dark Sun

 

[Rechan]

Unlike it seems a lot of 4e players in this thread, I didn't like 3e one bit. There are perhaps three things I could say about it that's nice.

But, I don't make a habit of talking about why I don't like 3e, or what made me unhappy, etc etc. Because it accomplishes nothing but being negative. I have something I like now, and I want to focus on enjoying that.

And I'm glad that those who like 3e have something they can enjoy and focus on.

 

[Rechan]

I don't see why something like that couldn't be ported into 4e. Wizards could be able to choose their at-wills and encounter powers (not just dailies) each day, Fighters could burn healing surges to recharge their powers, Sorcerers could spend a daily to recharge their encounters, Rangers could recharge when killing their quarry, and so on.

The problem you're going to run into with this is the issue of balance.

Take an example, the ranger recharging his encounter powers when he kills his quarry. Well, if you have multiple opponents, the ranger could recharge his encounter power several times in the same encounter. Then if he's using it several times, it shouldn't be as powerful as the encounter power of someone who can't recharge their powers.

 

[Nifft]

The problem you're going to run into with this is the issue of balance.

Yep. And look at the other extreme: that "recharge ranger" in a fight against a Solo. Suddenly, his recharge mechanism is worthless.

Cheers, -- N