On playing new game systems

[aramis erak]

It’s usually way easier than learning to drive a car. I’d say by an order of magnitude.
It’s much more difficult over here.

Much of the US doesn't even require a class to get a driving license. Just pass the bloody test, get some number of hours of supervised driving (by a parent or other licensed adult usually is all that's required for "supervision"), and pass the practical factor road test.

That said, I've found some systems totally opaque... I had to have Luke Crane explain Apocalypse World's approach to rolls to me, because "To do it, do it" is nonsensical unless you grasp the mindset. Once I grasped that, the system seemed pretty clear. And very much not to my tastes setting-wise.

The hardest switch is when the game requires one to approach some element from a poorly explicated mindset.

Other mechanical elements that have tripped up people:

• Metacurrency
• Abstraction
• Dice tricks
  • roll x keep y,
  • use 2 dice to generate a 2-3 place number: d100, d66, d60, d50
  • Roll, halve, and round-up: d3, d5
  • dice shifts
  • counting successes
  • Two totals for the same dice
    • Champions "count the body" - two results: normal is sum of all faces. Body is 1 per die showing 2-5, 2 per 6, and none for 1.
    • ORE's height vs width
• Different dice than prior game
  • using dice other than d6's
  • using dice other than d10's (probably started with WoD or L5R)
• No damage rolls vs Damage rolls.
• shift to symbolic dice. (Going back to the days of WEG's Batman)
• Changes in use of specific attribute names. (Such as splitting Agility vs Dexterity, for a player where they are conjoined into either term.)

 

[Ovinomancer]

Others have answered but... archetypal D&D style prep is about stats and maps - populating a space with things for the PCs to interact with. It is not about events.

Invokes and compels are about what happens in the space once play begins.

Yes...? I mean, I'm one of the "others" that have answered this way. My post was in response to a poster that disagreed with this characterization, so I was asking how they did that, ie play FATE with D&D tight prep, as that's not my understanding of how FATE works.

 

[Greg K]

(Edited: I moved part of my original post to a new thread)

There are a lot of games that I want to try. However, there are games that I will not try. Here are the reasons that I will not try a system.

• The mechanics just don't click for me despite my admiration for the system (FATE Core/ FATE Accelerated)
• Using proprietary symbolic dice or cards that require interpretation for narrative effects.
• A non-D&D game using D&D class/level with D&D AC for armor, and both hit points and/or skills that automatically increase with level- More so, if it uses the D&D magic system of dividing spells by spell level. Outside of D&D it does not work for me- especially for licensed products, modern settings, or future settings.
• roll under stat systems
• too abstract of a combat system such as the entire combat resolved by a single roll
• in general, a combat system in which the difficulty is not directly opposed by the opponent's skill or ability..
• in most instances, too small a skill list and/or over-consolidated skills. My ideal list is 24-30 skills .
  For some genres, I can also deal with far fewer or even no skills- Ghostbusters or Toon for example. Also If a game has 18-20 skills, I don't mind splitting a few and adding a few others if I enjoy the rest of the system
• using attribute rolls to resolve everything with no options to reflect skill or training.
• character resource splat book syndrome (FFG Star Wars, D&D 4e): I have been through this enough with D&D 3e, White Wolf, and to a lesser degree AD&D 2e
• using JENGA towers (for starters, I have nerve/tendon damage in the arm that I would use and a slight vision issue). Also no using dominoes or pure resource allocation (e.g., Marvel Universe RPG using stones).
• one-shots outside of a convention demo. In general, I don't like one shots. I like campaigns that are going to go on for several months if not years . I'd be happy to try two or three session test (stopping after the first if nobody is enjoying the system).

I am sure that there are additional reasons that I will not try a game.

 

[Greg K]

• shift to symbolic dice. (Going back to the days of WEG's Batman)

In general, I don't like proprietary symbolic dice. WEG's DC Universe dice is one of the few instances that didn't bother me except for trying to track down a set at a reasonable price. As long as one the success chart, a d6 was very easy to use (my issue was the system using additional tables to resolve lifting and movement The lifting and movement charts (along with how movement powers were handled) was unnecessary and way too granular).

Fudge Dice are another instance in which I am fine with specialty dice.

 

[Morrus]

As seen by my list at the bottom, I am willing to try a lot of systems. However, there are some systems that I don't want to try for various reasons.

• The mechanics just don't click for me despite my admiration for the system (FATE Core/ FATE Accelerated)
• using proprietary symbolic dice or cards that require interpretation for narrative effects.
• A non-D&D game using D&D class/level with D&D AC for armor, and both hit points and/or skills that automatically increase with level- Moreso, if it uses the D&D magic system. Outside of D&D it does not work form- especially for licensed products, modern settings, or future settings.
• roll under stat systems
• too abstract of a combat system/ the entire combat resolved by a single roll
• in general, a combat system in which the difficulty is directly unopposed by the opponent's skill or ability. It can be adding the opponent's skill to the base difficulty or subtracting it from my total before comparing it to the difficulty.
• in most instances, too small a skill list and/or over consolidated skills. My ideal list is 24-30 skills . I do make exceptions if I like the rest of the system and the list needs a little about tweaking. For example, when I had planned to run Cinematic Unisystem, I had to expand the skill list by splitting a few skills and introduce a couple of others. For some genres, I can also deal with far fewer or even no skills- Toon for example.
• using attribute rolls with nothing else to reflect skill training. I don't care if the system is roll an extra die or reduce difficulty because you have the Acrobatic trait. However, see above for some exceptions.
• character resource splat book syndrome (FFG Star Wars, D&D 4e): I have been through this enough with D&D 3e, White Wolf, and to a lesser degree AD&D 2e
• using things like JENGA towers or dominoes.
• one-shots outside of a convention demo. In general, I don't like one shots. I like campaigns that are going to go on for several months or not years.
• Currently, time/scheduling with friends, a few members of my gaming group moving cross-country, and other life/personal issues (e.g. going back to school in the evening/online courses) have resulted in my not gaming for over a year.

I am sure that there are more reasons that I will not try a game.

Yikes!

 

[Umbran]

Much of the US doesn't even require a class to get a driving license.

32 states require a safety class for teens to get a learner's permit.

 

[Greg K]

Yikes!

I clarified a few things in my post. In two instances, I left out the word "not".

 

[GrahamWills]

I'm curious how you ran FATE with a tight prep like D&D. Not disbelieving, just curious because that's not how I understand the system at all. How do you allow player invokes or DM compels drive the story if it's already mapped?

I think you switched terms there -- I run most games with a lot of prep, but react to what the players do so they have high agency. I think you're confusing "prep" with "already mapped story".

In a Fate mystery I carefully prep the murder scene, the suspects and properties of the environment. I'll create organizations and buildings, sets of contacts and a historical timeline. I'll also create a "timeline of what will happen next if nothing changes"

When the players interact with the system, I will replace prepared elements with elements that the players describe. If the players attempt to describe something that will invalidate the premise of the game, I will let them know that it's not possible.

The only difference between Fate and D&D is that in Fate, they can pay a Fate chip to modify details, whereas in D&D the narrative elements are freeform, so the difference is this:

FATE Player: I'd like to have been working in the wine cellar the previous day -- do you need a chip for that?
FATE GM: actually no, I'm afraid that wouldn't work
FATE Player: <I have now acquired a little bit of meta-knowledge>

D&D Player: I'd like to have been working in the wine cellar the previous day -- since I have profession:laborer, is that OK?
D&D GM: actually no, I'm afraid that wouldn't work
D&D Player: <I have now acquired a little bit of meta-knowledge>

Fate players are, in my experience, more likely to make bigger changes, but my D&D players do it all the time to; they its don't have rules for it and have to do it freeform.

 

[GrahamWills]

An example from my current Fate game: I adapted a D&D-like module, so it should be a great example!

A lamia was abducting people and hypnotizing them, making them participate in debauched rituals and then either using them as thralls or killing them. I had a solid timeline on when people had disappeared, a subplot with a wannabe-sorcerer who had found out the info and used it to blackmail a friend of the PCs, who was, at time of play start, just enthralled.

The module had set scenes:
1) meet father of friend and join the search
2) gather info from 3-4 locations
3) one of them gets kidnapped but escapes
4) hunt down blackmailer and handle him
5) (optional) go to one of the Lamia's parties
6) break into lamia's house and destroy her source of power

So I prepped all the main characters, giving them aspects and skills. Also the main areas and buildings. The module had its scripted version of past events and what would happen next, so that was done for me.

That's the prep part.

In play, the players made narrative changes to find a witness and also to entirely avoid scene #3. They skipped scene #5 completely. One of the narrative changes they used involved the creation of a London street gang that is now a major part fo the campaign.

So:

• The dungeon was stocked ahead of play
• The GM created very little in the moment
• There was a mapped plot, but it was defined as provisional
• Due to both narrative control and player actions, the mapped story changed

I pretty much so the same thing in CoC, Gumshoe, D&D, 13A Deadlands Classic and all the other systems I run -- the systems differentiate mostly in whether the provisional plots are changed mostly due to dice rolls, player agency, or narrative control.

Hope that helps!

 

[Greg K]

As a super simple example, Dread does suspense really, really well.

The use of Jenga in Dread, does not work for those of us with certain physical disabilities. I have nerve and tendon damage in my dominant arm (as well as the shoulder blade) and a slight vision problem within arms reach. It is going to be uncomfortable and unfun as I try to steadily pull out the piece.

Now, beyond, that I just like resolution to be influenced by my characters skills and abilities.