D&D 5E On Representation and Roleplaying

[Umbran]

1. How close is too close? Who gets to decide?

As an example, some years ago I had a Fantasy Hero setting that was supposed to be deliberately broad stroke. ...
You could say I was being forward thinking by having one of the African cultures being the most advanced on the planet (they were in what we'd think of as mid-Renaissance when everyone else ranged from Iron Age to Late Medieval) or running to negative stereotypes because the Central/South American expie wasn't a very nice place. I could see someone of Nahua ethnicity who's seen all the Aztecs' negative traits constantly front and center and all their virtues ignored getting kind of soggy about that. So was it a bad idea to even go that far?

So, in good critique, we can note doing well on some things, and worse on others. And while there's some tendency to ask, "Should I not have done that?" I think the better approach is to think on how you can do better next time - how do we continue to improve?

I think any time we are deliberately using broad strokes, we need to examine those strokes, and make sure we aren't leaning into stereotypes too much. And maybe with one of these you did better than the other.

Simple technique I've seen for avoiding this - write down a description of the culture of a given area, in your broad strokes. Check yourself then and see if that matches a stereotype you don't want to propagate. If you see one, you have two options - change the stroke you have, or add a stroke to that culture, that defies the stereotype, giving the whole more depth.

2. What translates into other cultures?

...

I'm not suggesting that one shouldn't take care in these cases and others, but I do think the appropriate borders in such things are really unclear in a lot of cases.

They definitely aren't always clear. But, that's not a reason to throw up our hands in despair. It is a reason to think and try to be sensitive.

If you are doing something for your group alone, well, then ultimately you and your table decide. And then it may be good to just be open with your group about what you are trying to do. Maybe they have thoughts about it that can guide you. You can then make it clear that your own awareness of stuff is a work on progress, and you don't have to be perfect on the first shot. You can then maybe relax a bit, so long as you are trying to be better each time.

And I totally get where you are coming from - I'm a white, cisgender heterosexual male. My grandparents immigrated (with my parents, who were children at the time) to the US after WWII, as they came from a place that fell behind the Iron Curtain. I have never been to the Old Country, I didn't even pick up the language, and documentation on the mythology of the Old Country is... basically nonexistent. So, what culture can I validly draw from?

Part of the answer to this can come from consideration of "punching up or punching down". You might respectfully borrow elements from folks who aren't disadvantaged in the cultural scene with respect to you. Someone like me, who is part of a cultural majority here, whose cultural legacy is European, but got swallowed up, might be okay taking inspiration from most European mythologies for my games? I'm on shakier ground if I borrow from African, Native American, Meso-American, Middle-Eastern or Asian cultures. For those, I'd probably want to at least find sources with strong understanding of the cultures in question, and be careful how I use that material.

There's a lot to be said for doing research, and even taking classes, in the cultural legacies you'd like to represent. Go farther then reading Wikipedia.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Now for a truism- roleplaying ... like, really good roleplaying ... it's hard. Think of some example you've seen. Maybe it's acting in a film. Maybe it's watching Critical Role. And then compare it to what you're doing at your own table- it's not easy!

I remember a time when I first started playing it was "role" playing to "be the dwarf" or the "elf" or the "fighter." You didn't need accents (pet peeve, it's not role-playing), acting, or a lengthy backstory. "Role-play" was simple(r). You just showed up with a sheet and became something different, for a time, than you were.

I worry, however, that podcasts and live-streaming have inadvertently created the expectation you need to act, or that role-playing is more complicated than simply showing up with a sheet and playing a "role." Feels like it puts pressure to "perform" that wasn't there before.

 

[Umbran]

also, what does the BI bit mean in BIPOC?

Black, Indigenous, and People Of Color.

 

[el-remmen]

why would you be inspired by something from tv they are fake and competent, I know I am real and a failure thus it seems rather ungraspable to be inspired by fictional or real people at all? also, what does the BI bit mean in BIPOC?

I don't know what to tell you, dude. I explained it as well as I could and even said "inspiration" is not all of it. Like you are literally seeing a person like you doing a thing in the real world (acting, having success) in addition to the thematic or allegorical thing they are pretending to do. You are going to have to use your imagination to think about what that could mean to a person and to a community. You continuing to say that you don't feel that way is not really a question and is beginning to feel like a not good faith effort to understand by putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

But I will also say this, you don't have to understand. You can also just accept that when BIPOC or other marginalized folks say this is important they are being sincere and it is.

BIPOC stands for Black/Indigenous/People of Color.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Black, Indigenous, and People Of Color.

thank you.

I don't know what to tell you, dude. I explained it as well as I could and even said "inspiration" is not all of it. Like you are literally seeing a person like you doing a thing in the real world (acting, having success) in addition to the thematic or allegorical thing they are pretending to do. You are going to have to use your imagination to think about what that could mean to a person and to a community. You continuing to say that you don't feel that way is not really a question and is beginning to feel like a not good faith effort to understand by putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

But I will also say this, you don't have to understand. You can also just accept that when BIPOC or other marginalized folks say this is important they are being sincere and it is.

BIPOC stands for Black/Indigenous/People of Color.

ah, I see it is simply because I have never felt a part of a group in my life that I lack the ability to understand this concept at all, thank you for your attempt to explain it.

 

[Umbran]

I remember a time when I first started playing it was "role" playing to "be the dwarf" or the "elf" or the "fighter." You didn't need accents (pet peeve, it's not role-playing), acting, or a lengthy backstory. "Role-play" was simple(r). You just showed up with a sheet and became something different, for a time, than you were.

I worry, however, that podcasts and live-streaming have inadvertently created the expectation you need to act, or that role-playing is more complicated than simply showing up with a sheet and playing a "role." Feels like it puts pressure to "perform" that wasn't there before.

Hobbies and their communities develop, broaden, and change over time. New techniques and aspects open up. To worry about these changes is like worrying about time moving forward.

I mean, I had my musical tastes cemented back in the 80s. Rather few modern artists make music I really love any more. Such is life.

But then, if you came to my table back in the 80s, you'd have found the expectation that being "the fighter" wasn't quite what we wanted in our players - we were already trying to do more full and individual personalities even back then.

 

[Thomas Shey]

So, in good critique, we can note doing well on some things, and worse on others. And while there's some tendency to ask, "Should I not have done that?" I think the better approach is to think on how you can do better next time - how do we continue to improve?

I think any time we are deliberately using broad strokes, we need to examine those strokes, and make sure we aren't leaning into stereotypes too much. And maybe with one of these you did better than the other.

Simple technique I've seen for avoiding this - write down a description of the culture of a given area, in your broad strokes. Check yourself then and see if that matches a stereotype you don't want to propagate. If you see one, you have two options - change the stroke you have, or add a stroke to that culture, that defies the stereotype, giving the whole more depth.

I think I did. But it still didn't make the area a good place.

That's part of the issue. As long as you have cultures that are going to have traits that mean some of them are going to seem better than others to players, its going to seem like someone is being slammed. Would this only have been acceptable if I'd aimed it at the two cultures who resembled Nordic and Central European ones, since it doesn't look like punching down? Is this the equivalent of the only real bad guys you can be using being white het boys?

(Yes, I know that can sound like poor-little-me from a dominant group, but the point is that consistently avoiding the unattractive element in a setting being represented by groups that are subaltern in our world seems, at best, overcompensation. But do anything else and it always comes across that your motives and judgment are in question).

They definitely aren't always clear. But, that's not a reason to throw up our hands in despair. It is a reason to think and try to be sensitive.

If you are doing something for your group alone, well, then ultimately you and your table decide. And then it may be good to just be open with your group about what you are trying to do. Maybe they have thoughts about it that can guide you. You can then make it clear that your own awareness of stuff is a work on progress, and you don't have to be perfect on the first shot. You can then maybe relax a bit, so long as you are trying to be better each time.

And I totally get where you are coming from - I'm a white, cisgender heterosexual male. My grandparents immigrated (with my parents, who were children at the time) to the US after WWII, as they came from a place that fell behind the Iron Curtain. I have never been to the Old Country, I didn't even pick up the language, and documentation on the mythology of the Old Country is... basically nonexistent. So, what culture can I validly draw from?

Yeah, know that one too; the other half of my ancestry is Croatian.

Part of the answer to this can come from consideration of "punching up or punching down". You might respectfully borrow elements from folks who aren't disadvantaged in the cultural scene with respect to you. Someone like me, who is part of a cultural majority here, whose cultural legacy is European, but got swallowed up, might be okay taking inspiration from most European mythologies for my games? I'm on shakier ground if I borrow from African, Native American, Meso-American, Middle-Eastern or Asian cultures. For those, I'd probably want to at least find sources with strong understanding of the cultures in question, and be careful how I use that material.

I get the distinction but, well, not so sure that in my example the Welsh would agree with you.

That's part of the gig, of course; while some groups are pretty clearly subaltern (if there's a place in the world where blacks aren't effectively to one degree or another an underclass, except in countries where the whole country is treated as a lesser place, I'm not sure where it is), different groups we wouldn't class that way still see themselves that way, and there's no obvious way to make the distinction sometimes (Asian being a muddy case; there are absolutely parts of the world where Asians are treated as subalterns, but its hard to see China, Japan and Korea and see that as a global trait.) So if I'm using a group of pseudo-Celts as villains somewhere, do a Welsh player have the right to feel targeted?

There's a lot to be said for doing research, and even taking classes, in the cultural legacies you'd like to represent. Go farther then reading Wikipedia.

The more central to a campaign something is, the more research I do (I'm an ex-librarian, so one thing I know how to do is research). But that's the problem; the less you're using just bland, super-familiar approximations, the more the negative elements can seem aimed at somebody, and given games normal need for conflict, those are going to often be the more visible. Even when what you're doing is aimed at their ancestors rather than the modern versions (and let's face it, in many ways the cultures of a lot of our ancestors were kind of terrible), it can end up feeling really personal.

(I remember a situation I encountered some years ago where I hit some Russians that thought Americans were racially prejudiced against them. I tried to explain that while there's still some baggage about the politics between the U.S. and Russia (and this was in a less fraught period than we have these days) to the vast majority of us, Russians were just another bunch of white guys, but I don't think they believed me).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Oh man, that Mickey Rooney bit...

Yeah, I have to wonder if a fair number of people (even non-Asian) didn't find that cringeworthy even at the time. But over-the-top racial stereotypes were still a big thing in comedy, so...

 

[wicked cool]

Hobbies and their communities develop, broaden, and change over time. New techniques and aspects open up. To worry about these changes is like worrying about time moving forward.

I mean, I had my musical tastes cemented back in the 80s. Rather few modern artists make music I really love any more. Such is life.

But then, if you came to my table back in the 80s, you'd have found the expectation that being "the fighter" wasn't quite what we wanted in our players - we were already trying to do more full and individual personalities even back then.

off topic but if you wanted reccomendations based on what you liked in 80's to what is similiar now i could help in another topic

 

[Vaalingrade]

For those who want to understand what it feels like to see genuine representation, if you're old enough think back to the first time you saw a character playing D&D where it wasn't the butt of the joke or just clumsy shorthand for 'nerdy'. Now imagine that nerdy was part of your physical being rather than something you came to by choice. The feeling of that part of you being portrayed a a whole person rather than the cartoon version of what people who don't know you think you are.