D&D General On simulating things: what, why, and how?

[Crimson Longinus]

I fully agree that there is inconsistency between martial characters' combat power and their general athletic ability. The simulation (or "simulation") would feel more consistent to me if the latter was boosted.

I also think that simulation of may normal animals in D&D is lacking. A lot of them have pretty pathetic stats. I think this is result of them being kinda an afterthought, and most people wanting to fight all sort of fantastic monsters, but a 19 HP crocodile, c'mon!

 

[Hussar]

I fully agree that there is inconsistency between martial characters' combat power and their general athletic ability. The simulation (or "simulation") would feel more consistent to me if the latter was boosted.

I also think that simulation of may normal animals in D&D is lacking. A lot of them have pretty pathetic stats. I think this is result of them being kinda an afterthought, and most people wanting to fight all sort of fantastic monsters, but a 19 HP crocodile, c'mon!

Well, really, it's kinda a knock on effect of the level system. If we start doing animal stats that reflected their real world lethality, then the monsters would get just such a massive boost. So, if we bump a crocodile to 40 HP, for example, how much should we bump a wyvern? After all, they're about the same size (ish) but, typically a wyvern is seen as MUCH more dangerous than a crocodile.

Which means that our low level Tier 1 PC's are stuck fighting rats and giant spiders for three or four levels because everything else is just too dangerous. So, in the name of having something to use in an adventure, we accept that the monster stats are largely set because of the game, with some nods towards at least believability, if not actual simulation. So a bigger animal does have more hp than a smaller animal, but, the range of HP (and thus CR) for animals is going to be pretty heavily constrained by the needs of the game.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Is there a reason you dislike it? I think D&D has some simulationist aspects. It's simulating actions and stories you would see in fantasy novels. Why is it so bad to call it simulation? It's not a judgement call, it's not justification of anything being "better". It's just a word that people understand ... to simulate something is to do something like it, that evokes the same imagery and feeling. That's all. I really don't understand what the hangup is.

I'm sorry, didn't you tell everyone that no one can tell you what simulationist means, and yet here you are asking why you can't call something simulationist? This is exactly why I'm rejecting the term, or any term, and looking to explore what is actually happening in the play.

What do you think about a game system that has some things modeled on real life human capability in one moment and then in another takes that same character and has them perform superhuman feats of derring do? Maybe, let's imagine a system where fights are brutal, and real world physics based such that a guy with a spear is in a world of hurt against a polar bear (like, no chance) but who can jump 100' chasms with ease. Does this align well with what you want from a game? Or is the other way around more attractive, where the guy with a spear considers a fully-grown polar bear to be a light workout, but can only jump like 16-20 feet with a good run up depending on what his strength is? Which does a better job getting to the kind of play you want to have and why?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, really, it's kinda a knock on effect of the level system. If we start doing animal stats that reflected their real world lethality, then the monsters would get just such a massive boost. So, if we bump a crocodile to 40 HP, for example, how much should we bump a wyvern? After all, they're about the same size (ish) but, typically a wyvern is seen as MUCH more dangerous than a crocodile.

Well, I don't feel it needs to be so. I'm fine with some normal animals being as dangerous than "monsters." Wyvern is a giant flying lizard with a a poison tail, I don't feel it needs to be physically massively tougher than a giant river lizard.*

(*Yes, I know that crocodilians are not actually lizards. Not sure about wyverns.)

 

[Hussar]

Well, I don't feel it needs to be so. I'm fine with some normal animals being as dangerous than "monsters." Wyvern is a giant flying lizard with a a poison tail, I don't feel it needs to be physically massively tougher than a giant river lizard.*

(*Yes, I know that crocodilians are not actually lizards. Not sure about wyverns.)

Well, that's fair enough, but, it doesn't really change anything. the reason that a wyvern is massively tougher than a crocodile is because of the level system. There really isn't any other reason here. I mean, to put it in perspective, a crocodile is Large, and has 19 hp. A wyvern is Large and has 110 hp, while an elephant is Huge and only has 76 hp.

Let's be honest here, there's absolutely no simulation going on here at all. Anything that even remotely resembles a simulation is largely accidental. And don't even get me started on AC. An elephant and a crocodile have the same AC? Seriously? Hey, I admit crocodiles have a pretty tough hide, but, an elephant is pretty famous for being thick skinned. Never minding that both have the same AC as leather armor. Whereas our Wyvern even has a better AC than both. Because... reasons?

Look, I know I'm banging this drum pretty hard, but, that's because this has been a pernicious thing for a long, long time. Any time we start to discuss anything like introducing new mechanics, or changing existing mechanics, it seems like the "but simulation" argument comes up again and again.

So either we start doing a LOT of rewriting of the game, or we just accept that game rules as world physics engine really doesn't work too well. The game rules are mostly there so we can play a game, not try to use those mechanics to inform the narrative. D&D just isn't that kind of game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, that's fair enough, but, it doesn't really change anything. the reason that a wyvern is massively tougher than a crocodile is because of the level system. There really isn't any other reason here. I mean, to put it in perspective, a crocodile is Large, and has 19 hp. A wyvern is Large and has 110 hp, while an elephant is Huge and only has 76 hp.

Let's be honest here, there's absolutely no simulation going on here at all. Anything that even remotely resembles a simulation is largely accidental. And don't even get me started on AC. An elephant and a crocodile have the same AC? Seriously? Hey, I admit crocodiles have a pretty tough hide, but, an elephant is pretty famous for being thick skinned. Never minding that both have the same AC as leather armor. Whereas our Wyvern even has a better AC than both. Because... reasons?

Look, I know I'm banging this drum pretty hard, but, that's because this has been a pernicious thing for a long, long time. Any time we start to discuss anything like introducing new mechanics, or changing existing mechanics, it seems like the "but simulation" argument comes up again and again.

So either we start doing a LOT of rewriting of the game, or we just accept that game rules as world physics engine really doesn't work too well. The game rules are mostly there so we can play a game, not try to use those mechanics to inform the narrative. D&D just isn't that kind of game.

I vote for a lot of rewriting of the game.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, I'm going to again say that by the time you rework D&D so its doing any real kind of simulation, you might as well start with something else; it'll be almost unrecognizable.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I vote for a lot of rewriting of the game.

Which way? To remove the bits that are clinging to normal human capability, or the many more bits of superhuman capability?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I fully recognise that how D&D assigns rules to fluff is rather haphazard. I don't think there isn't any simulationist intent at all, there clearly is. Frost giant has way higher strength score than a drow priestess of Lolth even though they're same challenge rating. That is simulating giants being big and strong and the drow not.

But when I say that I wish D&D was a tad more simulationist., I merely mean that I wish that the consistency of how the numbers and rules correspond to the concepts they're supposed to be representing was given a higher priority. I don't mean creating seven thousand needlessly detailed charts to cover myriad interactions. Basically, clearly decide what the fiction you're representing is (for example is a 15 level fighter a Navy Seal or a Mythic Hero with superhuman prowess) and then assign the rules that represent these concept consistently across the whole game. If a bear has Str 19, then it also means that a person with Str 20 is stronger than a bear in the fiction! If you don't want that fiction, then change the numbers!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is why I find 4e the most immersive and visceral form of D&D combat. It makes me imagine and engage with what is actually happening between the foes!

Yeah, I never reliably saw things happen like the way in 4e my friend's husband played a halfling rogue that would SWING INTO COMBAT. That was how he always explained his powers. I forget the total suite of powers he had, but he colored all the effects and forced movement and whatnot such that his character's entire shtick was flinging grapples at things and then swinging around and flying through the air, etc. It was, of course, quite preposterous from any sort of 'realism' angle, but the fact that all the powers had all this detail you could use, how they moved you/the enemy around and knocked people over, etc. I mean, this guy played it to the hilt, he was great! It always amused me, because he claimed he didn't like 4e, but he sure got really into it! The rest of that group kinda had to play catch up, but they are really all super experienced and fun players, so it just turned into a complete crazy action movie-like fest of PCs bouncing off the walls and doing crazy stuff. I don't think I ever had to introduce any house rule or unusual interpretation of any of the mechanics either. It 'just worked'.