On the futility of Illusion and Enchantment

[nhl_1997]

Mindblank may block most of the lower level enchantment spells, but the higher level enchantment spells aren't all mind effecting (at least in 3.5). Also enchantment is nice enough to give a spell that gives a -10 to will saves, Mind Fog. For a school that is highly dependent on will save this is a nice boon.

...

Unless I'm mistaken, all enchantment spells listed in the 3.5PHB are either charms or compulsions (thus, they are all mind-affecting and Mindblank works against all of them.)

However, as hinted by Aust Diamondew above, Greater Dispel Magic can be extremely useful.....


Also, as an aside to the original rant commenting about an 8th level spell giving immunity to all energy attacks, that isn't too far from what is possible. Given an archmage with the Extend Spell feat and the Energy Immunity spell from Tome and Blood, immunity to all energy attacks would cost an 8th level slot, a 7th level slot, and a 5th level slot.

 

[Thanee]

What foe that can be effected need only don a protection from good spell to ward off about half of the school.

How can you consider two spells (actually only one and its advanced version) half of a school!?

Bye
Thanee

 

[rkanodia]

Also, as an aside to the original rant commenting about an 8th level spell giving immunity to all energy attacks, that isn't too far from what is possible. Given an archmage with the Extend Spell feat and the Energy Immunity spell from Tome and Blood, immunity to all energy attacks would cost an 8th level slot, a 7th level slot, and a 5th level slot.

I don't really find this to be a compelling argument. A character with significant expenditures in character design can use a spell from a splatbook to block most of the effects of a school? Mind blank lets a character with trivial expenditure block all of the effects of a school. Yup, I just went through the PHB, and every single Enchantment spell has the mind-affecting descriptor. The only Enchantment spells that are beneficial in nature, and thus still useful as buffs against a mind blanked opponent are the dauntingly overpowered Heroism, Rage, and Greater Heroism.

Yup, that's it. An evil enchanter would have no compulsion using dominated minions to do combat with a mind blanked foe, but protection from/magic circle against evil will shut that down in a hurry, again without requiring any significant investment on the part of the character.

Meanwhile, even if someone is immune to anything with an energy descriptor, an evoker can still use magic missile, darkness, gust of wind, wind wall, ice storm (3d6 bludgeoning), otiluke's resilient sphere, wall of ice, wall of force, forcecage, Mordenkainen's Sword, sunburst, prismatic spray/wall/sphere (3 out of 7 effects still work fine!), and the various Bigby spells.

Yes, dispelling works against either setup. But (unless you're using a disjunction), dispelling is rather a crapshoot, and it spends a turn. An evoker can spend that turn using a metamagicked magic missile or using a crushing hand or forcecage. Heck, if you're taking material from other sources, which you have to be to include energy immunity, a metamagicked missile storm is one of any high-level evoker's go-to spells. Energy immunity? He didn't even notice; he just used his favorite spells on you like he does to everyone, and they worked perfectly.

 

[4sticks]

[rant]
I have a player playing a character based around Enchnatment effects (charm, dominate, that sort of thing). She cannot affect Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead, or Vermin. What foe that can be effected need only don a protection from good spell to ward off about half of the school. Mind blank provides protection from any Divination and.... Enchantment effect; yes, the ugly stepsister of divination has been found.
Then there is illusion. It's nice. But a simple detect magic can foil it. And then comes true seeing, and wrecks just about every illusion spell out there.There goes the illusionist character concept. Bye bye.

Yes, there are a few spells that aren't affected in those schools. But why do the main applications of the school need be totally thwarted by a 1st level spell? Why must high-level game totally negate these character concepts?
Mind blank is too neat; what if I had an 8th level spell that made the character immune to any energy-based effect? True seeing is too good; what if I had a sixth level spell that allowed the character to undo any transmutation spell in a 60' radius?

Divination is supposed to be weak. I can live with that, even if I find it rediculous. But enchantment or illusion? They aren't the equal of other schools. And if anyone thinks they are, I recommend he let high-level casters acceess to a spell providing immunity from say all energy-based damage and transmutations; let's call it Body Blank. I have a feeling it will be very popular.

[/rant]

I really can't agree with you at all there, to be honest.

Protection From Good - Lasts for 1 rd per caster level. And it doesn't cancel the Enchantment effect, only prevents it working for that duration. Unless your enemies have stocked up all their spell slots with this, I can't see it being completely detrimental. Not to mention the fact that it only protects ONE CREATURE. And finally, on top of all of that, it doesn't stop most Enchantment spells anyway, only gives a +2 save against them. Hardly a game-breaking mechanic.

Mindblank - Wow, you mean my Sleep spell won't work against that 16th level guy who's high enough to cast Mindblank in the first place? Well you know what, I really wasn't planning on using it against him anyway. And what about his friend, the one with the Body Blank spell on him? Well, I'll use my Enchantment magic on him, and get him to attack the guy with the Mindblank spell on.

True Seeing - This one lasts 1 min per caster level. So it's probably safe to say that this person isn't going to be walking around all day with this spell on. The only reason he's going to use it to see through your illusions is if he already has a strong belief that they're there in the first place. The 250gp material component might be a hindrance eventually also.

Detect Magic - Also only lasts 1 min per level. And it also takes at least 3 rounds of concentrating to find the sources of those illusions. Good lord, what if that invisible illusionist took the opportunity to move?

Ok, enough of the banter, time for some honesty.

All specialised magic-users have areas in which they excel and suffer. Hence, there is a real art to finding the perfect way to play each one out. Yes, you could analytically go through the PHB to find the perfect foil for any concept. If this is what's happening to you, then it's possible that your DM is the problem, not the imagined weakness of the Enchantment school of magic.

If I were you, I'd view this as a challenge. How do I play and Enchanter who is aware of the weaknesses of his profession? Does he seek to power through them, or find other avenues to achieve his goals?

cheers

 

[Storyteller01]

Anyone try giving charmed friends arrows tainted with Wisdom sapping poison? The game is so much more fun when the other team's wizard is your best friend...

 

[Scion]

protection from [alignment] is 1min/level and mind blank is all day

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Illusion and Enchantments are not the best specialties in a dungeon crawl or toe-to-toe conflict with the BBEG, but both have immense potential in a more open scenario.

In particular, I would note that Suggestion is pound for pound the most powerful spell in the game, used properly. Suggestion also has fabulous synergy with Illusions. The right Illusion gives a big penalty to the Suggestion spell. The right Suggestion guides action such that there will be no save against the Illusion.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Illusion and Enchantments are not the best specialties in a dungeon crawl or toe-to-toe conflict with the BBEG, but both have immense potential in a more open scenario.

In particular, I would note that Suggestion is pound for pound the most powerful spell in the game, used properly. Suggestion also has fabulous synergy with Illusions. The right Illusion gives a big penalty to the Suggestion spell. The right Suggestion guides action such that there will be no save against the Illusion.

I couldn't agree more. I play a 17th level illusionist/enchantress sorceror. Presently, she has spells outside of those schools which are obviously useful in direct combat (ie. Prismatic Spray), but back in the early days I had to think creatively in every fight. I frequently used Ghost Sound to say, supplement a Bluff check concerning the number of Big Bad monsters who were travelling with me.

R from Three Haligonians

 

[Hypersmurf]

True Seeing - This one lasts 1 min per caster level. So it's probably safe to say that this person isn't going to be walking around all day with this spell on. The only reason he's going to use it to see through your illusions is if he already has a strong belief that they're there in the first place. The 250gp material component might be a hindrance eventually also.

The Helm of Vision (DotF) was always high on my want-list for high-level characters...

Detect Magic - Also only lasts 1 min per level. And it also takes at least 3 rounds of concentrating to find the sources of those illusions. Good lord, what if that invisible illusionist took the opportunity to move?

Arcane Sight works far better, yes

-Hyp.

 

[The Souljourner]

I think it depends a lot on your DM. If he allows you to be creative with illusions and suggestions, etc, then they can be very powerful... but if your DM stifles that creativity, either actively or indirectly... then they can really suck. If every goblin automatically knows that the dragon that just flew up is an illusion, then they're useless. If, instead, they run away (like they should), then it could be great.

The main problem with illusions and enchantments is that they often circumvent fighting, and D&D is very fighting-centric. If your DM gives full XP for avoided encounters, that's cool. My DMs generally don't.

As for Mind Blank - it's an 8th level spell, which means you have to be 15th level to cast it. If at 15th level, you don't have something better to do than try to dominate the guy in robes with no armor who practically oozes abjurations, then I don't think you can really fault the DM.

-The Souljourner