On the Importance of Mortality

[Jack7]

BECOMING a hero; the uncertainty is what makes it a game, and you a hero. Maybe you make it, maybe you don't - but if you were automatically gonna get there, you really needn't have bothered in the first place. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

You gotta point. To be a hero you must become a hero and to become a hero you must act as a hero. It ain't a title you gain by reaching a certain level or because you have more hit points or magical doo-dads.

Of course I think most of us were referring to the underlying point of the game (and I haven't yet had time to read all responses since last up to bat, so I may be reiterating someone's else's point a'bit), versus the entitlement of the game, that is bestowing any particular right upon a character based upon their mere status as being a character. So they are not mutually exclusive arguments, the game itself being essentially about heroism (at least as originally construed) and the idea that heroism must be earned by action, struggle and sacrifice, as you said.

Some characters are good, some are lousy (yes, I know nowadays "all voices are good and equal and everyone must be heard" but heroism is not about equality, it is about the merit gained by extraordinary and very non-equal action), just as some players are good in how they play, some are lousy, and there is a direct relationship between the two, player and character, and what can be done between them.

Precious Snowflakes

That term made me laugh. The thought of the heroic as a precious snowflake to whom no real or lasting harm may fall. I found it humorous.

And whereas I can understand the points some have made about death being disruptive to the game mechanically, and some have made some good points, the idea of "death-lite," that too strikes me as humorous. Kinda like pregnant-lite, or living-lite.

I guess it's a personality matter but with me it's to the end, whatever that is, or don't really bother. So it's either, "into it plenty, or into the mound."

 

[Fenes]

I see it more like spices. Some like their food hot, some don't, and some detest a certain spice, and even the smallest hint of it ruins a meal for them. Trying to argue that death has to be in a game, or can't be in a game (as opposed to whether or not it has a place in your own campaign) is like trying to argue that a steak has to be eaten rare (or well done), or it's wrong.

The only thing that matters is: Does having characters die adds to your enjoyment of the game? If yes, by all means keep it so. If not, don't do it.

But trying to argue that characters need to die in a game sounds like arguing that I have to eat my steak rare even though I want it well-done.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Question for the No-Death folks: Under what circumstances can the PCs in your games ultimately fail?

(By ultimately fail, I mean "fail with no chance of redress"?)

RC

 

[Fenes]

Question for the No-Death folks: Under what circumstances can the PCs in your games ultimately fail?

(By ultimately fail, I mean "fail with no chance of redress"?)

RC

Well, if they have to protect an important NPC, and said NPC gets killed. No chance to redress that, since I don't have raise dead in my campaign.

Then there's the "defend a stronghold" or "create a political alliance" "foster a political marriage" and so on, although since one could try to retake a fallen stronghold, or recreate an alliance, or engineer a divorce and another marriage, those may not qualify as "no chance of redress", even though in the context, a retry might be useless since the consequences may have already happened. (City fell, war broke out, wrong pretender on the throne etc.)

 

[shilsen]

If you examine my story hours (woefully non-updated, I know) in my .sig, you'll see that I disagree.

I would never have guessed

IMC, things can still happen to you after you die. Moreover, I hold that it is the player's perspective that is important, not the character's, and that with an extended PC pool (as I previously described) all those other goals are still possible, even if they are pursued through other PCs. Bob dies. His brother/son/lover seeks to avenge him. Easy.

In general, I'd say you are correct, but I wouldn't say that's true for all cases, and it becomes less so the more unique the PC concept is. To borrow from LotR, if one of the PCs happens to be Boromir and he pops it, his brother can step in and help with the quest. But if one of the PCs happens to be Aragorn and pops it, it's significantly more difficult to just replace him. And one doesn't have to go that far. Lots of PCs can have a particular individual resonance with the plot(s) of the game, some of which will be lost if you replace them with someone else.

 

[Shadeydm]

RC do you really percieve a no-death camp in this thread?


For me personally I view it as death being less probable outcome but not completely removed.

I have found that as long as you have hit points recorded on your character sheet, death remains possible despite any houserules to reduce its probability.

 

[shilsen]

You gotta point. To be a hero you must become a hero and to become a hero you must act as a hero.

And, of course, acting as a hero has a plethora of different definitions. Achilles, to some, is a hero. So is Hercules. So is Beowulf. So are St. George, Milton's Lucifer, Arjuna, Joan of Arc, Mad Max, Gandhi, Drizzt, Batman, et al. Depending on whose opinion you're seeking and which perspective you're using, there's a lot of variety to the concept.

So they are not mutually exclusive arguments, the game itself being essentially about heroism (at least as originally construed) and the idea that heroism must be earned by action, struggle and sacrifice, as you said.

Actually, as far as I know, the game as originally construed was about taking one of your wargaming units and turning it into a character and giving it a voice and killing things and taking their stuff.

I guess it's a personality matter but with me it's to the end, whatever that is, or don't really bother. So it's either, "into it plenty, or into the mound."

And if you take D&D to the end, it's always a bunch of people sitting around a table rolling dice and talking about the imaginary things their imaginary friends did. Once you hold that element firmly in mind, it's a little difficult to take seriously the argument that whether someone's imaginary friend died or not is a bona-fide route to heroism or even anything close to it.

 

[Fenes]

(Also, one has to consider that death in D&D RAW is not final, but just a time/money sink, especially past level 10.)

 

[Mallus]

...Mad Max, Gandhi...

BTW, nice juxtaposition!

And thank you for the next character I'm going to play; Mad Gandhi, master of the non-violent car case.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I would never have guessed

I am referring to the story hour section I've started for what happens after characters IMC die.

In general, I'd say you are correct, but I wouldn't say that's true for all cases, and it becomes less so the more unique the PC concept is. To borrow from LotR, if one of the PCs happens to be Boromir and he pops it, his brother can step in and help with the quest. But if one of the PCs happens to be Aragorn and pops it, it's significantly more difficult to just replace him. And one doesn't have to go that far. Lots of PCs can have a particular individual resonance with the plot(s) of the game, some of which will be lost if you replace them with someone else.

The difficulty with Aragorn isn't in the character concept, but in the story concept, IMHO. Tolkein has a definite outcome in mind, and Aragorn is central to that outcome. If Tolkein had the outcome in mind of "Boromir becomes great hero who rescues and later rules Gondor", then not only would Aragorn's death be okay, but it would probably be necessary (to remove the legitimate line of Kings).

Remove the definite outcome, and Aragorn's demise can become a turning point in any number of stories. Perhaps another Captain of the Dunadain wishes to avenge him. Perhaps the Sons of Elrond become more involved. Perhaps Eowyn or Arwen, both of whom loved Aragorn, take up his cause. There are many possibilities.

DMs trying to pre-script story outcomes is its own, seperate problem. I will certainly agree that PC death can get in the way of pre-scripted outcomes. OTOH, so can PC choices, to an equal degree.

RC