On the Krustiverse scale of power/divinity, where is X?

[Alzrius]

Just for fun, I thought I'd start a thread (since there didn't seem to be any active ones) for questions and discussion about where various characters and creatures would fall on U_K's scale of power/divinity. Since I already have a question about that, I'll start things off:

Given that Ascension puts the Outer Gods of the Cthulhu Mythos - Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Yog-Sothoth - at the level of Old Ones (albeit slightly obliquely regarding their names), where would some of the other Great Old Ones fall on that scale? Specifically, where would Hastur, Nyarlathotep, and Cthulhu be ranked?

 

[paradox42]

Wonderful thread idea, since so many threads have been posted on exactly this topic. Not to mention posts within other threads, such as the estimates of the power of various sci-fi races in the Sci-Fi thread.

My own answer to that specific question would be: Greater God, tops (for Cthulhu & Hastur), Elder One (or less powerful Old One) for Nyarlathotep. Nyarlathotep is an Outer/Other God himself, after all: he just happens to be the least powerful of them. So he's beyond the power of a mere deity, if Azathoth and the others are too. Cthulhu and Hastur are apparently ascended mortal beings of some weird alien race or other, and clearly haven't reached the level of Cosmic Force that (say) Shub-Niggurath or Azathoth have. So that makes them deity-level, not Sidereal-level, possibly even as low as Demigod. I'd doubt their power is any lower than that, though, given how long their cults have stuck around and how powerful/widespread said cultists appear to be within the society depicted in the stories.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

One way to look at it is to consider the likes of Cthulhu and Nyarlothotep as the Prophets/Champions of a Pantheon of Overgods.

Thus instead of being a Disciple (or Prophet or Champion etc.) of a Pantheon, the same character transplaced to an Over-Pantheon would be four Divine Strata higher.

Disciple becomes Demigod
Prophet becomes Lesser God
etc.

 

[Mr.Satan]

Avangions, Dragons, and Elemental advanced beings from Athas were on par with abominations. In fact, they were very like abominations. Not quite mortal, not quite gods, but capable of having a clergy of sorts. They were the movers and shakers of their worlds and feared (if not loved) by all who knew of them.

Each in truth would require a series of 10 templates that overlap to represent the various stages in their evolution. An advanced being prestige class that allows for the combining of magic and psionics, and 10 epic spells with which to acquire each template.

This was how it functioned in the novels and in the 2nd Edition TSR Darksun series. Dragon Magazine didn't get it right. They created a severely watered down version of this that was so laughable it wasn't worth it. Which is sad because I normally like Paizo's material. Athas.org did a much better version, but I think it could be even better if we all did it.

 

[Deinos]

As to Avangions and Dragon Kings, I personally think their power level is easily that of deities rather than abominations. The power level of a Dragon King or Avangion is utterly insane, and I think that overall, they're the most powerful statted beings in any edition of D&D.

That's not me saying that they should necessarily be automatically above Greater Gods, but rather that the only thing that was powerful about, say, 3e's official greater god rules was that they had Mastery of Life and Death, Alter Reality, and Annihilating Strike, while Avangions and Dragon Kings are just overall ludicrously powerful.

 

[Alzrius]

Avangions, Dragons, and Elemental advanced beings from Athas were on par with abominations. In fact, they were very like abominations. Not quite mortal, not quite gods, but capable of having a clergy of sorts. They were the movers and shakers of their worlds and feared (if not loved) by all who knew of them.

I think they'd have roughly the power-level of some of the stronger abominations, maybe even above, considering the sheer number of levels it'd take to achieve that form.

In 2E terms, you needed to be a 20th-level wizard (defiler or preserver) and 20th-level psionicist to become a dragon or avangion, which was then a subsequent 10-level evolution.

In 3.X/Pathfinder, that'd be a bit harder to do, as multiclassing in those rules is different from 2E dual-classing. Ultimately, if we kept the whole thing of needing to be 20th-level in both an arcane spellcasting class and a manifesting class (if not already epic-level spellcasting and manifesting, even if only slightly), this could easily catapult a fully-transformed dragon into the lower-mid 50's in terms of how many levels they'd have.

The quickest way, IMHO, would be to take 11 levels of wizard, another 11 levels of psion, and then 10 levels of cerebremancer. Presuming that dragon/avangion is a 10-level prestige class, then you're at a fully-transformed state by level 42.

...ahem.

That said, while dragons and avangions are exceptionally powerful, insofar as natural abilities, psionics, and manifesting, they can't normally grant spells. The Sorcerer-Kings were unique in that regard. The original Dragon Kings book said that they unintentionally each attracted a "living vortex" creature which let them grant spells (as power from the Inner Planes) to their templars. Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas retconned this by saying that they could grant spells due to their connection to the Dark Lens (a major artifact).

The two aren't necessarily irreconcilable, if you assume that it was the Dark Lens that somehow attracted/bound the living vortexes to the Sorcerer-Kings. Either way, however, it's highly unlikely that future advanced beings could do so; note that the future Sorcerer-King Atzetuk (Dragon #319) did manage, however.

Each in truth would require a series of 10 templates that overlap to represent the various stages in their evolution. An advanced being prestige class that allows for the combining of magic and psionics, and 10 epic spells with which to acquire each template.

I don't know that you'd need a separate series of templates, presuming that you made the prestige class epic enough.

The real trick would be denoting that you'd have requirements that would need to be filled per level of advancement in the PrC - rather than just to start taking levels in it.

This was how it functioned in the novels and in the 2nd Edition TSR Darksun series. Dragon Magazine didn't get it right. They created a severely watered down version of this that was so laughable it wasn't worth it. Which is sad because I normally like Paizo's material. Athas.org did a much better version, but I think it could be even better if we all did it.

To be fair, what was depicted in the novels and the game world didn't match at all with the advancement requirements in Dragon Kings or Defilers and Preservers. Those books talked about how various monuments for channeling the necessary power had to be built to advance through each stage, and that despite the dragon's "animalistic stage" where it was in too much pain to think clearly, it still had to forge alliances with powers on the elemental planes, etc.

In other words, the requirements for advancing need to be overhauled, somewhat.

I do agree that Paizo's version was much too watered-down, though.

As to Avangions and Dragon Kings, I personally think their power level is easily that of deities rather than abominations. The power level of a Dragon King or Avangion is utterly insane, and I think that overall, they're the most powerful statted beings in any edition of D&D.

I don't think I agree with this. The advanced beings were so powerful because they were combined 30th-level manifesters and spellcasters, alongside the physical enhancements of their transformation. That's impressive, but not so impressive as true deities. Hence why Dregoth (the undead Sorcerer-King) wanted to become an actual god so badly.

That's not me saying that they should necessarily be automatically above Greater Gods, but rather that the only thing that was powerful about, say, 3e's official greater god rules was that they had Mastery of Life and Death, Alter Reality, and Annihilating Strike, while Avangions and Dragon Kings are just overall ludicrously powerful.

Isn't that more of an indictment about how lame the official 3E deity stats were?

 

[Deinos]

Dregoth wanted to become a real god in part because in the context of 2e, the Powers were all-powerful (until they ran into: The Dark Powers, the Black, the Phlogstion, the Lady of Pain... seems like every 2e setting had its own anti-deity gimmick). Orcus wanted to be a god too, even though in say, Immortals Handbook (or 0e Immortals Boxed Set) standards, he already is on the level of one. And even gods want to be bigger gods.

Also, there's plenty of reasons anyone would want to become a deity. Someone who is immortal tier only because of worship, will still want inherent power; likewise, someone who is immortal only because of controlling an aperture, will want something more mobile as well.

I would dispute that they were powerful "only" because of being 30/30 level casters; they also had Psionic Enchantments or whatever, uberpowerful spells that only Advanced Beings can cast. Proof that they're powerful for reasons other than just multiclassedness.

 

[Alzrius]

Dregoth wanted to become a real god in part because in the context of 2e, the Powers were all-powerful

Only in terms of not having stats - the 2E deity books still laid down various prohibitions against direct actions that the actual deities themselves could take.

That said - while there's no way to prove it without official 3E stats for the Sorcerer-Kings - I'm still of the opinion that comparing a true deity to one of the Sorcerer-Kings would show that an actual god was stronger by far (though, again, the official 3E deity stats were quite lame).

I also always thought that Dregoth wanted to become a deity partly because that'd somehow let him reach 30th level. It was stated that being 29th level, he couldn't advance, and suffered the "pain" of an incomplete transformation or something like that.

(until they ran into: The Dark Powers, the Black, the Phlogstion, the Lady of Pain... seems like every 2e setting had its own anti-deity gimmick).

To be fair, these had their own subtleties about them.

The Dark Powers of Ravenloft were strong enough to defeat a demigod, and even imprison one. But stronger gods could come and go as they pleased (see Die Vecna Die, and also the entry for the horn of valhalla magic item in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, IIRC), and even affect Ravenloft from other planes, though the Dark Powers could interfere with that somewhat (see The Awakening).

The Black wasn't what kept the deities away from Athas, IIRC; it was the Grey. That's apparently what filled Athas's crystal sphere and replaced the Border Ethereal (and kept out spelljammers).

The Phlogiston just stopped planar travel. Gods could go into a crystal sphere and then enter the Phlogiston directly (hence how the Mulhorandi pantheon went from their native sphere to Realmspace).

The Lady of Pain, for her part, was evenly matched against a greater deity (see Die Vecna Die). While it was stated that she could take on her "true" form to battle Vecna directly, she knew doing so would immediately destroy Sigil and destabilize the planes.

But I wouldn't go so far as to call these "anti-deity gimmicks." It just shows that there are effects, locations, and beings that are beyond the gods, even in 2E. Other examples were the Spire of the Outlands, the Serpent (which guided Vecna), Jazirian and Ahriman (see The Guide to Hell), the Apocalypse Stone (it was called something else in the adventure of the same name, but close enough), the Dragon of Shades (see College of Wizardry), and others.

Orcus wanted to be a god too, even though in say, Immortals Handbook (or 0e Immortals Boxed Set) standards, he already is on the level of one. And even gods want to be bigger gods.

Orcus was a god in 2E also, albeit a dead one.

Also, there's plenty of reasons anyone would want to become a deity. Someone who is immortal tier only because of worship, will still want inherent power; likewise, someone who is immortal only because of controlling an aperture, will want something more mobile as well.

Yeah, but that's getting away from the original point, which is that the Sorcerer-Kings weren't equal to true deities in 2E, which I think would also be true in 3E - unfortunately, there's no way to know for certain, though I maintain it's a fairly safe bet.

I would dispute that they were powerful "only" because of being 30/30 level casters; they also had Psionic Enchantments or whatever, uberpowerful spells that only Advanced Beings can cast. Proof that they're powerful for reasons other than just multiclassedness.

I was looking at that as being an extension of just raising their class levels that high. Those are, after all, epic spells by another name. In fact, I believe we're even told that in DM's Option: High-Level Campaigns in beginning of the section of epic magic. It was something like "10th-level spells have many names, such as elven high magic or psionic enchantments. Here, we'll call them true dweomers."

 

[beej]

Ooh, Dark Sun power level talk. XD

Well, since we're using Krustiverse scales, I think it would be interesting to look at their 4E stats to see where the Sorcerer-monarchs stand:

(levels are converted to standard)

42 - Borys (Dragon of Tyr)
39 - Dregoth
37 - Lalali-Puy
33 - Nibenay
32 - Abalach-Re
29 - Andropinis
26 - Tektuktitlay

By comparison, Borys is the same level as 4E Orcus, while Torog, the lowest-level statted deity, is 34 solo (or 43). MM1 abominations ranged from standardized levels 23 to 39.

With 4E as baseline, at least, I'm inclined to agree that the sorcerer-monarchs are abomination-level in terms of power, while the Dragon of Tyr is in a league close to the demon lords (intermediate deity?). Perhaps Dregoth wants to attain godhood because at level 39, the dragon is the only thing left in Athas that can "give him enough xp to level-up." The alternative power boost of godhood is safer.

Makes me wonder how high Rajaat is by comparison.

PS. I've read from the 4E designers somewhere that the sorcerer-monarchs designations as either elite or solo was mostly a matter of their "fighting style." Nibenay's more likely to fight alongside high consorts compared to Lalali-Puy, so Nibs is elite while Lala is a solo. However, they were meant to be close to each other in terms of power level. If that is taken into account, then it might be proper to consider the elite SKs as solo, even if they aren't statted as such.

Personally I like the numbers already. In my game I explain Tek's weakness being brought about by maintaining a ritual that's so far taking him a king's age to cast. (He needs blood sacrifices and still doesn't have enough after all this time) But for those who think poor Tektuktitlay is truly under-appreciated, they might be more properly statted as:

38 - Nibenay
34 - Andropinis
31 - Tektuktitlay (he's still rock-bottom... )

 

[Alzrius]

Ooh, Dark Sun power level talk. XD

Well, since we're using Krustiverse scales, I think it would be interesting to look at their 4E stats to see where the Sorcerer-monarchs stand:

(levels are converted to standard)

42 - Borys (Dragon of Tyr)
39 - Dregoth
37 - Lalali-Puy
33 - Nibenay
32 - Abalach-Re
29 - Andropinis
26 - Tektuktitlay

By comparison, Borys is the same level as 4E Orcus, while Torog, the lowest-level statted deity, is 34 solo (or 43). MM1 abominations ranged from standardized levels 23 to 39.

Awesome comparison Beej! I hadn't even thought of using the various 4E stats for make a stable baseline regarding the power of Sorcerer-Kings vs. deities.

I'm a little curious, does the 4E Underdark book (which is the source of the stats for Torog, I believe) say what level of god Torog is? I mean, is he a demigod, lesser god, or greater god? The other 4E god stats that I'm aware of (namely Lolth and Tiamat) are level 35 solos, which means they're not that much stronger than Torog, so I'd presume they'd all be of the same divine strata.

For a quick conversion of the Sorcerer-King's power levels for my 3.X/Pathfinder brethren, this translates into the following Challenge Ratings (using U_K's 3rd to 4th Edition Conversions table, which I believe is what Beej used also), along with parenthetical notes of my loose guestimations - based on the guidelines in Ascension and the examples in Gods and Monsters - of what their equivalent divine level would be:

70 (avg. of 65-74) - Borys (equiv. lesser deity)
50 (avg. of 49-50) - Dregoth (equiv. demi-deity)
50 (avg. of 49-50) - Kalid-Ma (equiv. demi-deity)
44 (avg. of 43-45) - Lalali-Puy (equiv. demi-deity)
42 (avg. of 41-42) - Hamanu (equiv. demi-deity)
34 (avg. of 33-34) - Nibenay (equiv. quasi-deity)
31 (avg. of 30-32) - Abalach-Re (equiv. quasi-deity)
25 - Andropinis (equiv. hero-deity)
25 - Daskinor (equiv. hero-deity)
21 - Tectuktitlay (equiv. hero-deity)

Remember that in U_K's (v.3.5) system, CR is 2/3 of ECL.

With 4E as baseline, at least, I'm inclined to agree that the sorcerer-monarchs are abomination-level in terms of power, while the Dragon of Tyr is in a league close to the demon lords (intermediate deity?). Perhaps Dregoth wants to attain godhood because at level 39, the dragon is the only thing left in Athas that can "give him enough xp to level-up." The alternative power boost of godhood is safer.

I can't speak for how 4E ranks its demon lords, arch-devils, et al in regards to actual deities, but the IH Bestiary puts the singular rulers of Hell and the Abyss (though that rulership is more theoretical for the latter plane) as being Intermediate deities (though didn't U_K say once that he thought he should have changed that to greater deities?), the strongest demon princes and arch-devils as lesser deities, etc.

So in that regard, the 3.X/Pathfinder version of the Dragon is also equivalent in power to 3.X/Pathfinder Orcus (at least as the IH Bestiary would have placed him). Isn't it great when everything falls into place so neatly?

Makes me wonder how high Rajaat is by comparison.

No clue there. He was taken down by all fifteen champions (though two later turned traitor and tried to free him), and if I recall correctly they hadn't started their dragon transformations yet (or had just started), so my total shot in the dark is that Rajaat was the equivalent of an intermediate deity at the very least...and more likely the equivalent of a greater deity.

PS. I've read from the 4E designers somewhere that the sorcerer-monarchs designations as either elite or solo was mostly a matter of their "fighting style." Nibenay's more likely to fight alongside high consorts compared to Lalali-Puy, so Nibs is elite while Lala is a solo. However, they were meant to be close to each other in terms of power level. If that is taken into account, then it might be proper to consider the elite SKs as solo, even if they aren't statted as such.

Personally I like the numbers already. In my game I explain Tek's weakness being brought about by maintaining a ritual that's so far taking him a king's age to cast. (He needs blood sacrifices and still doesn't have enough after all this time) But for those who think poor Tektuktitlay is truly under-appreciated, they might be more properly statted as:

38 - Nibenay
34 - Andropinis
31 - Tektuktitlay (he's still rock-bottom... )

Here's the 3.X/Pathfinder CR's using these alternate numbers:

70 (avg. of 65-74) - Borys (equiv. lesser deity)
50 (avg. of 49-50) - Dregoth (equiv. demi-deity)
50 (avg. of 49-50) - Kalid-Ma (equiv. demi-deity)
47 (avg. of 46-48) - Nibenay (equiv. demi-deity)
44 (avg. of 43-45) - Lalali-Puy (equiv. demi-deity)
42 (avg. of 41-42) - Hamanu (equiv. demi-deity)
36 (avg. of 35-37) - Andropinis (equiv. quasi-deity)
31 (avg. of 30-32) - Abalach-Re (equiv. quasi-deity)
28 (avg. of 27-29) - Tectuktitlay (equiv. quasi-deity)
25 - Daskinor (equiv. hero-deity)

Personally, I like these numbers a bit better, since they make the Sorcerer-Kings more badass overall.

Either way, this was fun; kudos again to you, Beej!

EDIT: I've also added in Daskinor and Kalid-Ma to the above lists. Note that this reflects Kalid-Ma as a full-strength dragon (also altered/augmented with some sort of shadow-essence) as per the May, 2011 Dragon article Eye on Dark Sun - Kalidnay.