On the marketing of 4E

The thing is, the mold was causing the imbalance. So, no, it couldn't have been.

In a game using just the 2e PHB, the difference between any two fighters was: The weapon they were using, their stats(of which only really strength and con mattered at all), their magic items, and whether they were specialized or not.

This meant that the difference in damage between 2 fighters was, at most, 16 points(25 if you count hit percentage). The difference between 1d4 and 1d12+12. And that's assuming a fighter using a +5 weapon of the biggest kind he can find with an 18/00 strength who is specialized in it vs a fighter with 10 strength who uses a dagger. Most enemies, even at high levels didn't have much more than 60 or 70 hitpoints. Even with a 10 strength fighter with a +5 dagger was going to kill any any they fought, solo, in about 10 rounds.

In 3e, the difference between a 10 strength fighter who avoids any feats that increase his damage or hit percentage, doesn't find any magic items, and doesn't put any points into his strength vs the one that started with a 20 strength, gets every magic item and feat he can to increase his strength, hit chance, and damage is approximately 51(102 if you factor in hit percentage). This means the difference between killing a 200 hitpoint dragon in 2 rounds vs 100 rounds.

And that is just a comparison of fighters. If you take something like a weak Rogue vs a power Cleric or Druid and the numbers skyrocket to 200 or 300 points of damage different between them.

The mold of 3e was a design of customization. It was "You can choose how powerful you want to be". More customization = more imbalance. It's just the way things work. The ONLY way to reign in imbalance is to reign in customization.


Even if I agreed that this was a problem, which I would not, it does not explain the need to get rid of the nine alignments, vancian casting, and rewrite the entire demon/devil cosmology.

But this is getting a bit off track from the mistakes in marketing that were made.
 

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In 3e, the difference between a 10 strength fighter who avoids any feats that increase his damage or hit percentage, doesn't find any magic items, and doesn't put any points into his strength vs the one that started with a 20 strength, gets every magic item and feat he can to increase his strength, hit chance, and damage is approximately 51(102 if you factor in hit percentage). This means the difference between killing a 200 hitpoint dragon in 2 rounds vs 100 rounds.

Of course, such the 10 Strength fighter does not exist. Indeed, cannot, without deliberately shunting his feats into so many other areas that he is bound to be good at something. Standard ability score generation requires that he have a 14 ability score, and if he didn't use it on Strength, he still must have used it on something.

Mainly, what you have discovered is that in 3e, things have more hit points and do more damage.
 

Even if I agreed that this was a problem, which I would not, it does not explain the need to get rid of the nine alignments, vancian casting, and rewrite the entire demon/devil cosmology.

But this is getting a bit off track from the mistakes in marketing that were made.
A single cause doesn't explain everything.

Aligment? Look at the problems people have in trying to distinguishing the different alignments? Is this still lawful good? Is Chaotic Evil just an excuse for Evil? Can someone be lawful evil if he is bending the law? Or does he become chaotic?

4E system avoids that.


Vancian Magic? The way it worked easily lead to unbalanced results unless you put very specific on designing your adventure and encounter pacing.

Why keep the demon/devil cosmology? It provides one possibly campaign background. But it's far from the only one, and considering that D&D is often seen as a quasi-generic type of fantasy, the system doesn't have to be nailed down for one concept for all editions. The new cosmology provides a strong conflict between Gods and Demons and Gods and Evils that can be traced back to the creation myths. It doesn't rely purely on D&D concepts, but actually on some real world creation myths - the idea that the "Titans" (Primordials and Elementals and actual Titans and Giants) stood against the Gods is a very strong theme.
The idea that Devils betrayed the gods (or in fact one god - the human good) is a strong theme resonating witht real world mythology, too.
These changes bring D&D closer to us, because they allow us to tell and experience stories that exist in common (Western at least) myths. Of course, this becomes even more apparant if we look at other cosmoloy aspects, namely the Feywild. The idea of feys lurking just behind our perception, coming from hiding, weak spots connecting our worlds to there. I can't think of a new theme that I like more than that.

Of course, such the 10 Strength fighter does not exist. Indeed, cannot, without deliberately shunting his feats into so many other areas that he is bound to be good at something. Standard ability score generation requires that he have a 14 ability score, and if he didn't use it on Strength, he still must have used it on something.

Mainly, what you have discovered is that in 3e, things have more hit points and do more damage.
He's talking about extremes, sure. But there is still a lot of space in between that is _still_ problematic. If you come up with someone with some strength enhancing item, a weak magic weapon, and a little more strength like a 16 after having rolled only a 14 and picking Half-Orc for exampe), you can still get half of that value, and that is still higher than what your d20 can roll.
 

Aligment? Look at the problems people have in trying to distinguishing the different alignments? Is this still lawful good? Is Chaotic Evil just an excuse for Evil? Can someone be lawful evil if he is bending the law? Or does he become chaotic?

4E system avoids that.

How so? Lawful evil is gone but there is still Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil which are different from Good and Evil. Two out of your three example questions still seem to apply in 4e.
 

He's talking about extremes, sure. But there is still a lot of space in between that is _still_ problematic. If you come up with someone with some strength enhancing item, a weak magic weapon, and a little more strength like a 16 after having rolled only a 14 and picking Half-Orc for exampe), you can still get half of that value, and that is still higher than what your d20 can roll.

I'm fine with comparing an optimized character to an unoptimized one, but I don't see the point of comparing an optimized character to one that has no feats or equipment. Perhaps for comparison, we can look at a 4e character with no weapon talents or powers using a normal weapon versus an optimized character with powers and a magical weapon. 3e invites the logical possibility of nerfing your character, but there is only so much you can not do with a bunch of fighter feats unless you simply don't take them. I am reluctant to use this phrase because it is so often overused or misued, but nonetheless this is a classic strawman argument. I won't belabor why it's annoying and offensive to misrepresent things in discussion, because I feel that should be obvious.

Going back to 4e marketing... without 4e, would the Wizards staff have stopped playing D&D? If so, I think they forfeit the prerogative of being fan-creators. While I can understand the business reality that WotC owns the brand their staff can do with it as they please, I don't like the idea of non-fans taking control of a product I like and pushing it in other directions. If they would not have stopped playing D&D... then the marketing campaign suggests the D&D staff were making false comparisons. While I would not suggest they were being deceptive, they would in that scenario seem to be Kool-Aid drinkers. I don't think a little hyperbole is going to hurt anyone, but things can get out of hand.

So to draw a line between the dots... I feel that when fans compared Joe the Poor, nonexistent, possibly rules-breaking fighter with no feats or decent gear, with Sir Max of Blingland, optimized fighter with an expense budget, I feel a similar slip of logic has occured to that which infected a lot of the 4e marketing. It's certainly true that Joe does a fraction of Max's damage, but so what? It's the wrong comparison. There's also a huge realm of difference between dashing out stats for a 7th level goblin warrior versus agonizing over Nancy the Baker's feats, yet the commentary focused on the latter while ignoring how essentially similar a mid-level warrior is to a 4e creature with a handful of simple powers. 4e's multiclassing rules solved a number of problems, but to many many 3e fans, the problems were relatively minor while the loss of functionality in 4e was nearly fatal. Et cetera.

The extent to which you would notice and react to this distortion relates to the degree to which you agree with the less distorted versions of the same ideas.

If you say, "Bob is evil," and I don't like Bob, I may not agree, but, hey, I don't like Bob, so what's it to me?
If you say, "Bob is evil," and Bob is my best friend and roommate, that may get my hackles up. If you can't come up with a reasonable argument for why you think Bob is evil, I am going to conclude that to some degree, we don't live in the same reality.

"4e multiclassing totally rules compared to 3e multiclassing, which was terrible and broken" produces less cognitive dissonance in someone who prefers the 4e system than in one who prefers the 3e system. But the statement is, nonetheless, wrong. You can choose to believe it, you can muster arguments why it's true, but at the end of the day, many, many people found the 3e rules workable and the 4e rules dissatisfying. So the opinion becomes one of stated preference. If the 4e developers and the 4e cans claim the matter is one of general consensus, it turns out they are wrong. Their preference is only shared with some, perhaps even a majority of players, but certainly not everyone or even most everyone. And, perhaps, not even a majority. I think many 4e fans would say they tolerate the quirks of the 4e system because the system works within a class framework they otherwise prefer.
 

A single cause doesn't explain everything.

Forgive me for sipping the large post, but I think the big problem is this question: Why?

All the things you mentioned save alignment, which really WASN'T fixed, could've been better done in an alternate setting rather then forcing them to be core. It was, as someone else around here says, a problem of saying "Can we?" instead of "Should we?" Yes, they could completely alter alignment (Well, kinda alter it), change the way demons and devils work, alter the entire way the cosmology worked, completely change some of the races, force all other settings to apply by all of this...

...But why? How many people were honestly saying "You know, I like the Tiefling, but I want the race to be more homogenious and with completely altered fluff."

This is what pissed people off. Chane isn't inherently bad, but it's not inherently good either. When you make the sequel to something, change done only for the sake of change is a stupid move.
 

When you make the sequel to something, change done only for the sake of change is a stupid move.

There's no such thing, in a creative endeavor.

No, really.

Every change made in 4E--or 3E, or 2E, or the new World of Darkness, or Rob Zombie's version of Halloween, or Batman Begins--was made because someone in the creative team thought it was better this way. It wasn't "Let's change X because we can." It was "Let's change X because Y is better/cooler/more interesting."

Now, there's no reason you--"you" being "anyone"--has to agree that Y was better/cooler/more interesting. There's no reason to assume that the majority of the audience will agree. And that's fine. But agree or disagree, I guarantee you that these changes were made because someone involved thought they were making an improvement, not because they felt like changing things for the heck of it.
 

There's no such thing, in a creative endeavor.

No, really.

Every change made in 4E--or 3E, or 2E, or the new World of Darkness, or Rob Zombie's version of Halloween, or Batman Begins--was made because someone in the creative team thought it was better this way. It wasn't "Let's change X because we can." It was "Let's change X because Y is better/cooler/more interesting."

Dude...

I don't know how the creative endeavors you've had the pleasure of enduring are like, but I've often seen stuff changed just because it wants to be different, or on a whim, or for a reason that doesn't hold up under scrutiny but they want to try it anyway.

A lot of these get weeded out in the editing/re-writing process (thank the gods for good editors!), but some stay in for a variety of reasons.

The creative process is usually not that focused. IMXP, it's more exploratory, organic, tinkering, about twisting and tweaking the world to communicate a distinct thought. This is true for the music, visual art, writing, and performance that I've been parts of. Indeed, one of the big messages of creative "serious play" is that you're free to experiment without a deliberate goal in mind -- no need to enhance, just to toy with, tinker with, adjust, mess with, screw with, try something different with, and maybe find something new and cool with. It's generally the managers, suits, editors, and other organizational types that figure out what it's about and how to market it and what it's better or worse at. It's the creator's job usually to just create it, for the sake of creating it.

Not that this invalidates your broader point at all, of course. People are going to think some changes are better and some are worse, and only where there is clear consensus is it any sort of progress, and even then, it's not without loss (THAC0 still has sympathizers). I'm sure that a product like D&D had each change seriously considered and applied, though I'm not so sure a "we need change!" dogma wasn't in place at some point. The idea that change itself was going to fix the problems seems misguided, if it was in place. If not, well, it certainly seems that it was in certain areas. ;)
 

How so? Lawful evil is gone but there is still Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil which are different from Good and Evil. Two out of your three example questions still seem to apply in 4e.

I think personally for me the big issue was the difference between

Neutral Evil and Lawful Evil

AND

Chaotic Good and Neutral Good

AND

Lawful Neutral - Neutral - Chaotic Neutral

D&D always had no problem explaining/showing the difference between LG and regular Good, but it was the Chaotic and Netral good that always seemed hazy.

Similarly, the difference between neutral and lawful evil never really seemed important. Chaotic evil and the rest of evil made sense...
 

D&D always had no problem explaining/showing the difference between LG and regular Good, but it was the Chaotic and Netral good that always seemed hazy.

You do realize that when you compare LG to "regular Good," that's Neutral Good by definition, right?

And it seemed to do just fine with Chaotic Good - I've never had a problem with a character concept of "screw the law! I know what's right and I'm doing it!" Robin Hood always seemed like a classic example of this, at least to me.
 

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