On the subject of powers, builds and "sub classes"

[Reynard]

I started out as kind of disappointed and frustrated with the apparent limited nature of the 4E core classes, but when I was reading the Cleric entry, I had something of an epiphany:

The cleric has two basic builds to start: the battle cleric and the devoted cleric.

The powers, and therefore the "builds", presented in the PHB are specific subclasses. Moreover, they are only the "starter" subclasses. Creating a different cleric (or ranger or whatever) is simply a matter of a new menu of powers. (Well, probably not "simply", but you know what I mean.)

Thispossibility is particularly heartening in regards to the ranger and the rogue -- two classes whose "traditional" D&D flavor has been lost in favor of stabitty-ness. A "burglar" build for the rogue and "scout" build for the ranger would go a long way toward alleviating this issue (for me, I mean). I am also guessing this is exactly what we'll see in the various power-source splats (as I think it has been stated that there will not be new classes in the splats, only the new PHBs.)

 

[AllisterH]

Er, wasn't the scout ALREADY mechanically dfferent n 3.5 from the ranger and the rogue?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Er, wasn't the scout ALREADY mechanically dfferent n 3.5 from the ranger and the rogue?

They said the 4e ranger killed the scout and took his stuff

 

[Reynard]

Er, wasn't the scout ALREADY mechanically dfferent n 3.5 from the ranger and the rogue?

My fault for saying "scout" -- I didn't mean a 4e version of the 3.5 class. I meant a "forward observer and woodsy dude" build. IOW, an actual D&D ranger.

 

[AlexS]

Now, thanks to amazon, I've not managed to see the books yet, but wouldn't a ranger's forward scout/woodsman schtick be more of an out-of-combat thing? How, then, would you go about designing a suite of combat powers to reflect that?

As for the Rogue-burglar, if I understand what you're looking for, you want a rogue without the 'stabbity-stuff'. I'm not convinced you're going to see it, what with the whole 'everyone must be useful in combat' thing.

Now, other builds I can see no problem with, maybe a ranger focussing on single-weapon style fighting, or more of a ranged rogue, but I think you're going to be disappointed if you're looking to replace combat powers with extra-combat abilities.

 

[TheWyrd]

I miss thieves guilds.

 

[Victim]

I don't think you'll see any builds that involve selection of purely non-combat effects. No matter what combat abilities/style a rogue picks, being a burglar is mostly a matter of having the right skills/feats/utility powers and attitude.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Now, thanks to amazon, I've not managed to see the books yet, but wouldn't a ranger's forward scout/woodsman schtick be more of an out-of-combat thing? How, then, would you go about designing a suite of combat powers to reflect that?

Perhaps by developing a suite of 'utility' powers to handle it?

 

[Reynard]

I don't think you'll see any builds that involve selection of purely non-combat effects. No matter what combat abilities/style a rogue picks, being a burglar is mostly a matter of having the right skills/feats/utility powers and attitude.

Part of the intent, at least as stated, of 4E is to expand the definition of an encounter, right? And the important thing is, one would hope, not that every character can be super badass, but every play has fun, meaningful decisions to make during an encounter. If these things are true, a less combat oriented, more exploration oriented build for ranger or rogue should work out fine. Think of Shadowrun: very often, there's character like hackers and deckers doing other fun stuff while the street samurai and combat mages blast away. D&D could be run the same way.

But I wasn't speaking only of that, I was just suggesting that it seems like the whole powers/build concept will allow WotC, 3rd parties and homebrewers the opportunity to create "subclasses" that fill those niches left empty by the core books.

 

[The Little Raven]

A "burglar" build for the rogue and "scout" build for the ranger would go a long way toward alleviating this issue (for me, I mean).

I'll respond with ranger after I fully read the class.

However, for your "burglar," all you need is Perception, Thievery, and Stealth and maybe a couple of the stealthy/athletic utility powers from the class and you can burgle away. There's no need to create anything new for this archetype.