On Thud and Blunder

mmadsen

First Post
Since we've been discussing Inspirational and Educational Reading, I thought I'd post the opening to this essay by Poul Anderson on the various Conan knock-offs -- like Gardner Fox's Kothar series, I'm sure -- and how far they diverge from anything resembling reality. On Thud and Blunder:
With one stroke of his fifty-pound sword, Gnorts the Barbarian lopped off the head of Nialliv the Wizard. It flew through the air, still sneering, while Gnorts clove two royal guardsmen from vizor through breasplate to steel jockstrap. As he whirled to escape, an arrow glanced off his own chainmail. Then he was gone from the room, into the midnight city. Easily outrunning pursuit, he took a few sentries at the gate by surprise. For a moment, arms and legs hailed around him through showers of blood; then he had opened the gate and was free. A caravan of merchants, waiting to enter at dawn, was camped nearby. Seeing a magnificent stallion tethered, Gnorts released it, twisted the rope into a bridle, and rode it off bareback. After galloping several miles, he encountered a mounted patrol that challenged him. Immediately he plunged into the thick of the cavalrymen, swinging his blade right and left with deadly effect, rearing up his steed to bring its forefeet against one knight who dared to confront him directly. Then it was only to gallop onward. Winter winds lashed his body, attired in nothing more than a bearskin kilt, but he ignored the cold. Sunrise revealed the shore and his waiting longship. He knew the swift-sailing craft could bring him across five hundred leagues of monster-infested ocean in time for him to snatch the maiden princess Elamef away from evil Baron Rehcel while she remained a maiden — not that he intended to leave her in that condition … .
Exaggerated? Of course. But, unfortunately, not much, where some stories are concerned.

Today's rising popularity of heroic fantasy, or sword-and-sorcery as it is also called, is certainly a Good Thing for those of us who enjoy it. Probably this is part of a larger movement back toward old-fashioned storytelling, with colorful backgrounds, events, and characters, tales wherein people do take arms against a sea of troubles and usually win. Such literature is not inherently superior to the introspective or symbolic kinds, but neither is it inherently inferior; Homer and James Joyce were both great artists.

Yet every kind of writing is prone to special faults. For example, while no one expects heroic fantasy (hf) to be of ultimate psychological profundity, it is often simple to the point of being simplistic. This is not necessary, as such fine practitioners as de Camp, Leiber, and Tolkien have proven.

Worse, because it is still more obvious and still less excusable, is a frequent lack of elementary knowledge or plain common sense on the part of an author. A small minority of hf stories are set in real historical milieus, where the facts provide a degree of control — though howling errors remain all too easy to make. Most members of the genre, however, take place in an imaginary world. It may be a pre-glacial civilization like Howard's, an altered time-line like Kurtz's, another planet like Eddison's, a remote future like Vance's, a completely invented universe like Dunsany's, or what have you; the point is, nobody pretends this is aught but a Never-Never Land, wherein the author is free to arrange geography, history, theology, and the laws of nature to suit himself. Given that freedom, far too many writers nowadays have supposed that anything whatsoever goes, that practical day-to-day details are of no importance and hence they, the writers, have no homework to do before they start spinning their yarns.
[...]​
Read the whole thing and tell us what you think.
 

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I enjoyed this bit about escaping from the rich merchant's house in the middle of the night:
If he left after dark, he would scarcely run as trippingly as we have shown Gnorts the Barbarian doing. People who have experienced blackouts will tell you that a nighted city without the modern invention of lights is black. With walls shutting off most of the sky — especially along narrow medieval streets — it is far gloomier that any open field. You'd grope your way, unless you had a torch or lantern (and then you'd better have an armed guard). Furthermore, those lanes were open sewers; in many places, stepping stones went down the middle because of that. Despite sanitary measures, metropolitan streets as late as about 1900 were often uncrossable simply because of horse droppings. Graveyards stank too: one reason why incense was used in church services.​
 

That essay actually appears in the anthology Swords Against Darkness III, which is one of the titles on Gygax's famous list, and therefore at least in a sense the essay can be considered "inspirational/educational reading" for A/D&D fans. The essay does make a lot of good points for authors, adventure-writers, and DMs and players to keep in mind, but IMO a lot of it applies better to more ostensibly "realistic" rpgs such as RuneQuest (which shares some heritage with this essay -- both Anderson and RQ author Steve Perrin were active SCA members) than D&D, which is more self-consciously "heroic" and unrealistic -- Gygax frequently warns in the DMG against valuing realism over fast-moving adventure, after all.

Also, I want to speak up a but in defense of Gardner Fox. His "Kothar" books have taken some heat in various recent threads for being a blatant Conan-pastiche, which is undoubtedly true, but overlooks a few other key facts: 1) Conan pastiches and ripoffs were ridiculosuly common in those days (60s-70s) to the point that they were seen less as rip-offs and more as just 'what the genre is' -- in the same way that blatant Tolkein ripoffs proliferated in the 80s with hardly a raised eyebrow; 2) the Kothar books are, on their own terms, actually quite good -- Fox was an experienced pulp author (of both novels and comics) who knew how to craft a good plot and keep the action moving, arguably even better than Howard himself (who, let's face it, recycled the same few plots over and over with only slight variations); 3) the books are self-conscious and don't take themselves too seriously, without ever quite crossing over into outright camp/parody -- you don't need to feel guilty or "turn off your brain" to enjoy these books, because Fox is on your side and knows that the whole thing is at least half ridiculous (the same attitude and approach, incidentally, that IMO also best serves D&D); and 4) there are really much worse Conan ripoffs/pastiches than these -- including a fair number of stories by de Camp and/or Carter that are (or at least were, until the recent reprints) part of the Conan "canon;" and that's not even plumbing the depths of Thongor of Lemuria (Carter), Brak the Barbarian (John Jakes), the Gor novels (John Norman), and tons of other presumably even worse stuff that's been justly forgotten.

So, while no one will ever mistake the Kothar novels for literature, they are at very least a lot of fun, and you won't feel dirty or foolish after reading them. I'd heartily recommend them right alongside any of the other titles on Gygax's list, and above at least a few of them...
 

Some people want the literary equivalent of GURPS. Others want the literary equivalent of Feng Shui.

Mr. Anderson's comments on travel stick out as colossal examples of missing the point, IMO. Unless the horse or ship will play a role in the story, it's exactly like the dotted line in an Indiana Jones movie (and the literary equivalent in the pulp fiction on which the Indy movies were based). I'm sure scouring the ink-scarred pages of pulp magazines would unearth a treasure trove of ships waiting in harbor for favorable winds - because the story was better served by having the hero trapped in port rather than roving the high seas. By the same token, horses ridden to exhaustion - because the hero needed to be stranded in the wilderness to discover a grotto brimming over with prehuman deviltry, or caught by his pursuers to decide his fate in bloody constraint.

If a sword and sorcery story leaves you with time and breath to consider its implausibility or inaccuracy, either you're the wrong audience for sword and sorcery, or it's a poor sword and sorcery story. The genre is all about pacing and broad-stroke characterization, giving you a snapshot of an incident that is not realistic but hyper-real, gripping and breathless.

As to the literary mertis of most such yarns, I couldn't say. Robert E. Howard, at least, was a brilliant stylist and imbued his short stories with multiple thematic layers. However, I would no more condemn even lesser lights for failing to share insight on the human condition than I would the filmmakers who gave us Die Hard - or Indiana Jones, for that matter. If at the end of a sword and sorcery story I'm left mouth wide at the badassitude of the hero or the imagery of the climactic scene, I'll consider it well done. If I'm nodding appreciatively at the level of historical detail... I'll put down the bad sword and sorcery I'm reading and pick up a Gary Jennings historical novel which is guaranteed to be more accurate, more detailed and, coming as it does from another brilliant stylist, better written.
 

I am in agreement with MoogleEmpMog here. The essay comes off as a classic example of not seeing the forest from the trees. Some of the points may stand when we consider the work of a poor fantasy author, but when taken together, they are a recipe for dull simulation. I know a lot of people enjoy that, but I am vehemently in opposition: fantasy should be about the strange an unusual; in short, fantastic things. Now, sometimes, the sense of wonder is well served by creating a believable background (where the strange things really stand out), but this is just one possibility, while there are many others where different considerations - pacing, feel, etc. - require different solutions.

The tone and even specific points of the argument are also strongly reminiscent of all the anti-D&D and pro-realistic game X articles I have been unfortunate enough to read. Those tended to miss their points, too.
 

mmadsen said:
People who have experienced blackouts will tell you that a nighted city without the modern invention of lights is black. With walls shutting off most of the sky — especially along narrow medieval streets — it is far gloomier that any open field. You'd grope your way, unless you had a torch or lantern (and then you'd better have an armed guard).

It depends. Where I live it never even gets dark in the summer.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
Mr. Anderson's comments on travel stick out as colossal examples of missing the point, IMO. Unless the horse or ship will play a role in the story, it's exactly like the dotted line in an Indiana Jones movie (and the literary equivalent in the pulp fiction on which the Indy movies were based).
I think he would be quite happy to have the details reduced to a dotted line rather than made explicitly wrong and unrealistic.
MoogleEmpMog said:
I'm sure scouring the ink-scarred pages of pulp magazines would unearth a treasure trove of ships waiting in harbor for favorable winds - because the story was better served by having the hero trapped in port rather than roving the high seas. By the same token, horses ridden to exhaustion - because the hero needed to be stranded in the wilderness to discover a grotto brimming over with prehuman deviltry, or caught by his pursuers to decide his fate in bloody constraint.
As far as I can tell, he is listing facets of reality that aren't obvious to a naive modern writer -- but which would make great story elements, like those you mentioned.
MoogleEmpMog said:
If a sword and sorcery story leaves you with time and breath to consider its implausibility or inaccuracy, either you're the wrong audience for sword and sorcery, or it's a poor sword and sorcery story. The genre is all about pacing and broad-stroke characterization, giving you a snapshot of an incident that is not realistic but hyper-real, gripping and breathless.
I have enjoyed Poul Anderson's writing and Robert E. Howard's writing, but I have hated most of the Conan pastiches, for instance. There is a world of difference between top-notch swords-and-sorcery writing, which is exciting and plausible, and second-rate swords-and-sorcery writing, which seems to take place in modern America, but with horses for sports cars, sailing ships for airplanes, etc.
 

mmadsen said:
I think he would be quite happy to have the details reduced to a dotted line rather than made explicitly wrong and unrealistic.

Perhaps so. I couldn't care less one way or the other, and don't think it matters to the story - unless either the realistic or unrealistic turn of events serves to make a particular incident cooler or more exciting, or to sweep a less exciting sequence under the rug.

mmadsen said:
As far as I can tell, he is listing facets of reality that aren't obvious to a naive modern writer -- but which would make great story elements, like those you mentioned.

My point is that those things, while they make for some interesting stories, do not necessarily serve *other* interesting stories. A story about a pirate stranded in port and forced to deal with his situation there can be interesting; so, too, a story about the same pirate roving the high seas seemingly at will, his transportation addressed, if at all, in passing. How easy it is for the pirate to travel should be determined by the needs of the story, not whether he could realistically travel in ease.

mmadsen said:
I have enjoyed Poul Anderson's writing and Robert E. Howard's writing, but I have hated most of the Conan pastiches, for instance. There is a world of difference between top-notch swords-and-sorcery writing, which is exciting and plausible, and second-rate swords-and-sorcery writing, which seems to take place in modern America, but with horses for sports cars, sailing ships for airplanes, etc.

I've also hated most of the Conan pastiches - not because they were unrealistic, or even because most were poorly written, but because they lacked the thematic weight of Howard's originals. I would have enjoyed them somewhat if they hadn't had the Conan name on them. Others lack good pacing and or rhythm and wouldn't be enjoyable S&S regardless of their other features.

As to Poul Anderson's own writing, I generally like his sci-fi but not his fantasy. His fantasy is sword and sorcery in its themes and tropes, but with more of an epic fantasy or historical sensibility, and the result, to me, comes across as half-paced or quarter-paced sword and sorcery - once again, to my mind missing the point.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
As to Poul Anderson's own writing, I generally like his sci-fi but not his fantasy. His fantasy is sword and sorcery in its themes and tropes, but with more of an epic fantasy or historical sensibility, and the result, to me, comes across as half-paced or quarter-paced sword and sorcery - once again, to my mind missing the point.
I personally have quite enjoyed every bit of fantasy by Poul Anderson that I've read, and the conclusion to his essay resonates with my own personal tastes:
Lest the foregoing seem bloodthirsty, let me add that another flaw in most hf is the glossing over of pain, mangling, and the ordinarily grim process of dying. True, we don't want to get sadistic. And as a rule, we presume an era less sensitive than ours; most have been. And we're writing and reading for fun, not to preach moral lessons or harrow emotions. Still, a bit more realism in this respect too would lend convincingness.

We can then swing back to cheerful matters, such as harvest festivals, drunken evenings in taverns, and fertility rites where sympathetic magic gets totally sympathetic. We can let our hero have all kinds of adventures, buckle all kinds of swashes. I merely submit that he ought to do so in a world which, however thaumaturgical, makes sense. The more it does, the more the reader will enjoy — and the more he will come back for more.​
 

Numion said:
It depends. Where I live it never even gets dark in the summer.

Yeah ... just like Alaska, where my folks live. It just doesn't get dark certain times of the year. It might get a little less light, but that is about it. :)
 

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