On WotC's "Surge"

[Perram]

PF and 4E selling at equal rates? You realize that's total disaster if true, right? Paizo is a tiny company compared to WotC; sales figures that would be spectacular for them (or any other RPG company) are peanuts for Wizards. I'm not aware of any time in D&D's history when it has not been the best-selling game around. There may have been a brief period in the darkest days of the '90s when Vampire: The Masquerade was beating it--sales figures are hard to come by--but that's all.

Paizo is NOT a tiny company any longer:

• They employ as many people as the Wizards D&D team has, if not more.
• Supports probably as many freelancers.
• Releases more product on a monthly basis currently than any other company that I can think of (4e was tied with them, but not with this 'winding down' they have done.)
• Has equal or superior production quality as Wizards does as far as general appearance and layout of their products are concerned. (Every product is full color, saturated with well done artwork, and even hires many of the same cover artists as Wizards.)
• They are constantly expanding their staff with new hires even now.
• What little hints of how much Pathfinder sold points more to it doing fantastically well than just 4e doing very very poorly.

Neither company will give exact numbers, but from the hints of numbers I have seen in the many threads on the subject, Paizo isn't playing the scrappy little company fighting for 10% of the market against the D&D behemoth... or struggling to hang onto a dying hobby. Its come to play with the big guns out, and is competing with D&D at a scale not seen since Vampire in the 90s.

 

[Dausuul]

Paizo is NOT a tiny company any longer:

• They employ as many people as the Wizards D&D team has, if not more.
• Supports probably as many freelancers.
• Releases more product on a monthly basis currently than any other company that I can think of (4e was tied with them, but not with this 'winding down' they have done.)
• Has equal or superior production quality as Wizards does as far as general appearance and layout of their products are concerned. (Every product is full color, saturated with well done artwork, and even hires many of the same cover artists as Wizards.)
• They are constantly expanding their staff with new hires even now.
• What little hints of how much Pathfinder sold points more to it doing fantastically well than just 4e doing very very poorly.

Neither company will give exact numbers, but from the hints of numbers I have seen in the many threads on the subject, Paizo isn't playing the scrappy little company fighting for 10% of the market against the D&D behemoth... or struggling to hang onto a dying hobby. Its come to play with the big guns out, and is competing with D&D at a scale not seen since Vampire in the 90s.

Very interesting. I knew Paizo was doing well, but not that well. If so, it's even more impressive than V:tM was, since Paizo is going head-to-head with D&D on its own heroic-fantasy-adventure turf.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Another person with no inside expertise shoving their oar in, but...

I believe that all the stuff we hear about Paizo selling as well as D&D is bunk. I have no problem believing that in some FLGSes in some regions Paizo sells as well as or better than D&D. Fine.

But FLGSes are a shrinking part of the D&D pie. At this point they're probably more of an outreach program than a serious chunk of the sales market. D&D has serious shelf space at all the big brick-and-mortar book stores. That and on Amazon.com is where they are likely making the bulk of their money.

People deeply invested in the hobbyist community have distorted view of the market. D&D may or may not sell well to people like them, people who drive out to the FLGS a couple times a month for a game and pick up the new releases and talk shop with the folks in the store. But they're a niche within a niche.

Casual gamers buy at Barnes & Noble, because there is one near their house, or they buy online because it's cheaper. And when they're buying books at the bookstore or on Amazon, WotC product is way more visible to them than Paizo. That's to say nothing of things like boxed sets on the shelves at Target.

I guess I could be proven wrong, but I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that WotC doesn't still represent the 1000 lbs gorilla of the tabletop industry. Especially when it's based on the anecdotal reports from hobby shop owners. I don't have any information that anyone else doesn't have, but I just think there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical when it comes to these reports of Pathfinder outselling D&D.

 

[TerraDave]

Perram,

How many employees does Paizo have who work on Pathfinder? How many does WotC have that work on D&D?

I count a whole whopping 6 PFRPG products, not including the adventure paths/mods. NOT including minis, modules or mod like products, online contect, novels, dungeon tiles, non-rpg games (card or board) or card for RPGs WotC had 22 books and box sets for D&D in 2010. Even with the cut backs, WotC still has over a dozen products announced for 2011, and will anounce more.

Getting back to the cost argument, I hope Paizo doesn't have anything like the overhead the WotCies do. If so, they are totally ed.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

From Perram:

Paizo is NOT a tiny company any longer:

• They employ as many people as the Wizards D&D team has, if not more.
• Supports probably as many freelancers.
• Releases more product on a monthly basis currently than any other company that I can think of (4e was tied with them, but not with this 'winding down' they have done.)
• Has equal or superior production quality as Wizards does as far as general appearance and layout of their products are concerned. (Every product is full color, saturated with well done artwork, and even hires many of the same cover artists as Wizards.)
• They are constantly expanding their staff with new hires even now.
• What little hints of how much Pathfinder sold points more to it doing fantastically well than just 4e doing very very poorly.

Neither company will give exact numbers, but from the hints of numbers I have seen in the many threads on the subject, Paizo isn't playing the scrappy little company fighting for 10% of the market against the D&D behemoth... or struggling to hang onto a dying hobby. Its come to play with the big guns out, and is competing with D&D at a scale not seen since Vampire in the 90s.

I'd like to believe this. Can you provide any quotes/evidence from official or semi-official sources?

Because last I heard (and this could be dated) was that Paizo was nowhere close to the size of WotC, in sales or in size.

Thanks!

 

[Imaro]

Another person with no inside expertise shoving their oar in, but...

I believe that all the stuff we hear about Paizo selling as well as D&D is bunk. I have no problem believing that in some FLGSes in some regions Paizo sells as well as or better than D&D. Fine.

But FLGSes are a shrinking part of the D&D pie. At this point they're probably more of an outreach program than a serious chunk of the sales market. D&D has serious shelf space at all the big brick-and-mortar book stores. That and on Amazon.com is where they are likely making the bulk of their money.

People deeply invested in the hobbyist community have distorted view of the market. D&D may or may not sell well to people like them, people who drive out to the FLGS a couple times a month for a game and pick up the new releases and talk shop with the folks in the store. But they're a niche within a niche.

Casual gamers buy at Barnes & Noble, because there is one near their house, or they buy online because it's cheaper. And when they're buying books at the bookstore or on Amazon, WotC product is way more visible to them than Paizo. That's to say nothing of things like boxed sets on the shelves at Target.

I guess I could be proven wrong, but I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that WotC doesn't still represent the 1000 lbs gorilla of the tabletop industry. Especially when it's based on the anecdotal reports from hobby shop owners. I don't have any information that anyone else doesn't have, but I just think there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical when it comes to these reports of Pathfinder outselling D&D.

Well it seems (from rankings) that the Pathfinder corebook has been outselling both the original and essentials corebooks on Amazon.

Does this give a complete picture? No. But it does support the theory that Pathfinder is selling as well or better than D&D 4e.

EDIT: On a side note, Pathfinder can be found in Borders and B&N.

 

[Dungeoneer]

EDIT: On a side note, Pathfinder can be found in Borders and B&N.

Sure it can. I've seen it. I've seen the one Pathfinder book next to the entire shelf of D&D product. Which is next to the rotating rack with more D&D product.

 

[Imaro]

Sure it can. I've seen it. I've seen the one Pathfinder book next to the entire shelf of D&D product. Which is next to the rotating rack with more D&D product.

Sooo... the Pathfinder books are selling while D&D is just sitting there?? Because I know for a fact I've seen the APG, Bestiary and GMG along with the core in Borders and B&N.

Edit: I also see you chose to ignore the part about Amazon rankings...

 

[korjik]

Barnes and Noble rates pathfinder at 16851th, and the 4e PHB1 at 35597th. red box is 33688th

Not telling how much actual difference that is, or over what period the rating is, but I still find it compelling that D&D isnt higher no matter what the conditions.

Not conclusive, but it is some more evidence

Edit: Rules compendium is just over 20k.

 

[Perram]

Perram,

How many employees does Paizo have who work on Pathfinder? How many does WotC have that work on D&D?

I don't wish to offend anyone by leaving their name off (D&D or Pathfinder), as both sources I'm pulling these lists from are a few months old, and if I have, I appologize.

Paizo has 11 people that I can count dedicated to producting Pathfinder material: James Jacobs, Jason Bulhman, F. Wesley Schneider, Sean K. Reynolds, James L. Sutter, Christopher Carey, Rob McCreary, Sarah Robinson, Crystal Frasier, Erik Mona, Mark Morland. And they currently have a job posting looking for another to make 12.

D&D Has 12: Richard Baker, Greg Bilsland, Michele Carter, Jeremy Crawford, Mike Mearls, Kim Mohan, Carl Moore, Christopher Perkins, Stephen Schubert, Matt Sernett, Rodney Thompson, Steve Winter.

To be fair, D&D also has a 4 man team that makes up the "D&D New Business Team", and I'm not sure of their responsibilities. But they aren't listed as current designers, editors, developers of the current table top game.

So thats 11 (soon to be 12) versus 12. Pretty close as far as team size goes.

I count a whole whopping 6 PFRPG products, not including the adventure paths/mods. NOT including minis, modules or mod like products, online contect, novels, dungeon tiles, non-rpg games (card or board) or card for RPGs WotC had 22 books and box sets for D&D in 2010. Even with the cut backs, WotC still has over a dozen products announced for 2011, and will anounce more.

Not really a fair comparasson here, as Paizo's major focus for Pathfinder is their adventures, modules, and campaign setting. I understand that 4e puts less of an emphasis on these aspects, and more on the crunch.

Pathfinder is in many ways the opposite, and releases far more campaign setting material, adventures, and adventure paths than they do crunch. Indeed, the main RPG line only releases 3-4 hard back crunch books per year. But they also release 3-4 books each month in addition to those focusing on their campaign world and adventures, what Paizo considers their flagship.

That is their current plan, focusing on adventures. It seems to be working quite well for them.

I'd like to believe this. Can you provide any quotes/evidence from official or semi-official sources?

Most of the numbers and hints of numbers were discussed in this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...ied-first-place-icv2-q3-rpg-sales-list-3.html

Warning, it is a long thread.




Now, I'm not sure 100% where the D&D vs. Pathfinder numbers lie exactly all sales considered. But I am pretty certain that they are close enough for Paizo to no longer be considered a small competitor. At the very least, they should be considered to control a very sizable and non-trivial portion of the market.