Once and for all- Is D&D magic overpowered?

[Willowhaunt]

I've been worried for quite a while about the state of my favorite roleplaying game, because I've begun to notice an alarming tendency for the magic using classes to be unbeatable by their non-magic-using rivals. High level magic especially can outright kill anybody, and often mages can target a fighter or rogue's weak save, bending them to their will after one unlucky die roll. However, most other RPG systems I've seen also have some variation on the "Mental Domination Spell" theme, but this isn't where it ends. Mages have many other spells to protect them from those who cannot bypass or dispel them. Flight removes the possibility of meleeing a mage, stoneskin makes a victory by pure damage difficult, Teleport (and Teleport Without Error/Greater Teleport) makes for a nearly effortless getaway, Alarm, Scrying, Foresight, Contact Other Plane, and several other Divination and Abjuration spells make it nearly impossible, or even outright impossible, to sneak up on a magic-user (of Arcane or Divine origin) or keep any secrets from them...but even at low levels, a single sleep spell, followed by a coup-de-grace, can spell the end for the toughest of fighters, so I doubt that there is even balance in "mages having to start weak." Is it just me, or are non-magic-users destined to be forever ruled by those with higher Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma? I'm desperately looking for an answer (hopefully one that doesn't involve some obscure prestige class, as that wouldn't be all that great to have everybody who isn't a magic user join the exact same class) but it's beginning to look to me like there is no answer, and D&D will be plagued for years to come with a horrific unbalance.

Help!

 

[Schmoe]

Rock, Paper, Scissors

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue

Wizards beat fighters, rogues beat wizards, and fighters beat rogues. While not absolutely true, in general this is the combat balance among the classes.

 

[Crothian]

Yes. Playing a character without magic is nearly impossuible in a normal game if you want the character to be close powerwise. The fact that the game assumes characters get thousands of gold pieces worth of magic at low levels is bad enough. But at higher levels to assume everyone has the magic equivelent of the DNP of nations is worse. THe game is flexible in all things but magic.

 

[swrushing]

...but even at low levels, a single sleep spell, followed by a coup-de-grace, can spell the end for the toughest of fighters, so I doubt that there is even balance in "mages having to start weak."
Help!

while the mage went thru his full round spell casting of the sleep spell, what exactly was the fighter doing? Signing for a package from UPS perhaps?

balance is mostly circumstantial, not class based.

if mages are proving unbalanced in actual play, talk to your GM.
if mages are seeming unbalanced in theoretical imaginings, imagine happier things.

 

[Schmoe]

Hmm, it seems I didn't read the entire first post and thus gave a poor reply. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I do think that the game becomes too dependent upon magic at high levels. That's actually one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to Iron Lore. Crothian summed up my sentiments very well.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is not a pvp game. IT is a team-based game. The classes aren't balanced to fight each other, they're balanced to work as a unite against challenges.

Balance isn't about who can beat who, it's about who can contribute to encounters.

 

[Telas]

Improved Initiative + Archer-type + Readied action = no problem. (Generally speaking, of course.)

Also, the game is designed around a balanced party, not PvP. It's assumed that you'll have a cleric or wiz at your side. While not perfectly accurate, that's the original concept.

Telas

 

[Willowhaunt]

I did consider the idea that Fighters and Mages shouldn't be having it out with each other, but instead the monsters, except that such a situation comes up only part of the time. Real life and the world in general have a lot of "PvP" in them, and I don't see any reason why Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or any home brewed setting except the most bizarre would be any different. I've DMed and played in many successful D&D campaigns in which the party worked together, but what happens in that one game where they don't...and what happens when, in an evil but cooperative party, the mages decide to simply Dominate or Charm the fighters so that there are no more leadership disputes...?

Even the D&D novels (FR, etc.) seem to skirt around this situation, just as they ignore the fact that there are resurrection spells.

Also, most straight combat solutions such as rapid fire, sneak attacks, and grappling don't work all that well because a smart mage will have used various magical means to find out the attacker is on his or her way long before initiative is rolled. There's even a 1st level spell for just this purpose: Alarm.

(By the way, thanks for pointing out Iron Lore...sounds perfect. I'm just hoping I can convert the FR to Iron Lore so I won't have wasted all that money on Realms sourcebooks...)

 

[MarauderX]

I've been worried for quite a while about the state of my favorite roleplaying game, because I've begun to notice an alarming tendency for the magic using classes to be unbeatable by their non-magic-using rivals. High level magic especially can outright kill anybody, and often mages can target a fighter or rogue's weak save, bending them to their will after one unlucky die roll. However, most other RPG systems I've seen also have some variation on the "Mental Domination Spell" theme, but this isn't where it ends. Mages have many other spells to protect them from those who cannot bypass or dispel them. Flight removes the possibility of meleeing a mage, stoneskin makes a victory by pure damage difficult, Teleport (and Teleport Without Error/Greater Teleport) makes for a nearly effortless getaway, Alarm, Scrying, Foresight, Contact Other Plane, and several other Divination and Abjuration spells make it nearly impossible, or even outright impossible, to sneak up on a magic-user (of Arcane or Divine origin) or keep any secrets from them...but even at low levels, a single sleep spell, followed by a coup-de-grace, can spell the end for the toughest of fighters, so I doubt that there is even balance in "mages having to start weak." Is it just me, or are non-magic-users destined to be forever ruled by those with higher Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma? I'm desperately looking for an answer (hopefully one that doesn't involve some obscure prestige class, as that wouldn't be all that great to have everybody who isn't a magic user join the exact same class) but it's beginning to look to me like there is no answer, and D&D will be plagued for years to come with a horrific unbalance.

Help!

What matters is that it takes time for the caster to get those spells off. If you have a mage that can cast for 12+ rounds while you dance with his peons, of course you are going to have problems.

To me the inverse is true. With Power Attack, weilding a weapon with two hands, and using reach, etc., a caster barely has a chance to scramble out of the way to execute a spell without interference. If there is an enemy rogue or monk, then chances are even slimmer as they glide by the front line with Spring Attack or a mediocre tumble. Flying can be countered by many means, but usually involves also using magic such as dispel, which makes falling another danger that also puts you prone. Getting intercepted by a fighter that deals out 100% of your HP in damage per attack spells instant death, just like hold and coup-de-grace. Grapple just opens a whole other can of worms that the common mage has to plan defensively for.

Getting to an entrenched mage may seem tough as there are many spells that can be set up in advance to makes matters really rough. Lasting through a mage's entire spell list will either require avoidance (rogue) or persistance (melee). And every party will be tagged by the invisible, flying, fireball-slinging mage with stoneskin. It's almost tradition, just like a mage dealing with a quiet rogue in a pitch black room. How the players have the PCs handle the situation may make or break the team.

If you're facing off one-on-one perhaps you need to rethink the strategy a bit. Charging headlong into a fray doesn't work every time; even Conan doesn't work that way. You have a cleric or other pseudo-spell slinger you can hire? Silence works wonders against full round spells, and others are great for manipulating the battlefield to limit what the enemy mage can do.

 

[Crothian]

Real life and the world in general have a lot of "PvP" in them, and I don't see any reason why Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or any home brewed setting except the most bizarre would be any different.

Yep, found the mistake. Classic mistake thinking that the real world and the fantasy ones are a like. PvP does happen in the fantasy world but not like the real world, know why? There are monsters and other dangers in the fantasy world.