Once and for all- Is D&D magic overpowered?

[Psion]

No, I really don't think so, unless you have an exceedingly narrow definition of balance.

I do think at high levels (speaking as a GM-running-villain-NPC here), it becomes almost a necessity to have magic to escape from a rampaging PC party. But that is not the basis of balance. Nor does it really disturb me. I find that one of the central measures of balance is whether it distorts the nature of the way the game is played (such as creating must-have classes, feats, spells, etc.) I really see no problem with high level recurring villains being predominantly mages.

Considering the sorts of damage that a high level fighter or rogue can continuosly pump out, and take, I really don't see the problem here. Yes, it's true that the game becomes much more difficult without mages (mage meaning sorcerer/wizard). But it becomes equivalently more difficult without fighter types.

I disagree with the notion that you should not take the party model into consideration when designing for balance. Yes, you will have to tweak the sorts of challenges that you face the PCs with if you deviate from that model. But that's okay. We can do that. The stardard party model is a fairly neutral ground, and it takes a lot less to go from there to an all-mage or all-warrior game than it would from any particular extreme. And it's a fairly common standard configuration.

Trying to base the model of game balance around individual characters facing off would be entirely too fragile and unreliable. I think the party model is the best model you can really hope for.

 

[Crothian]

I think what we are disagreeing about right now is the projected purpose of the D&D game.

I see it as being the simulation of a reality in which magic and monsters exist. I don't really see it as a game as much as a sim where anything can and should have the opportunity to happen, a imaginary sandbox, as it were. I think pigeonholing the game as a teamwork excersice belittles the possibilities of the roleplaying genre- there are too many stories that cannot happen if partying is the only option...

(I'll have more to say once I've slept and am coherent again)

Well, the game is about parties of adventures there is no way to get around that. You can alter that but it does change the game. And it is a game, not an avenue for telling stories. If you want to tell stories, write a book. D&D is a game.

 

[diaglo]

D&D is a game.

and for some it is a hobby.

and for some it is an means to gain an income.

and for some it is a way to tell a story.

 

[twofalls]

There is no "Once and For All" regarding this question. The question is relevent to the person who answers it, and everyone has their own opinions. One of my games has reached the 14th level of play and the players are demigods. I've used the 3.0 rules straight up, and they are absurdly unbeatable (well no one is unbeatable, but encounters that are well above their EL are defeated handily due to magic). I've a lot of experience running games, so I design situations to challenge them anyhow, however IMO high level games loose their charm and I wont be running another one. This game is 3.5 years old and was our first foray into 3.x.

So to answer the origninal question, for my style of play, yes, magic is overpowered.

I think I'll go buy Grimm. (Oh... wait... I can't... promised my wife no more books for a while... damn). :\

 

[Gez]

No. D&D magic is not overpowered. D&D magic is one of the legs of the D&D table. The game is built around that magic power level. If you cut that leg, you'll get a wobbling table.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I see it as being the simulation of a reality in which magic and monsters exist. I don't really see it as a game as much as a sim where anything can and should have the opportunity to happen, a imaginary sandbox, as it were. I think pigeonholing the game as a teamwork excersice belittles the possibilities of the roleplaying genre- there are too many stories that cannot happen if partying is the only option...

You may be right about the roleplaying genre, but D&D as a game doesn't support what you are seeking. There may be other games in the RPG arena that suit you better. I think, though, that you'll be disappointed in your search for a RP GAME that is set up for PvP game-play. RPGs are set up as a social activity, and in general, this social activity is best acheived in the party and GM set-up.

 

[The Human Target]

Asking an honest question about DnD is like slapping someones momma around here. :\

 

[diaglo]

Asking an honest question about DnD is like slapping someones momma around here. :\

who's your daddy?

IYKWIMAITYD

diaglo "i'm slapping your momma right now" Ooi

 

[Mercule]

Also, most straight combat solutions such as rapid fire, sneak attacks, and grappling don't work all that well because a smart mage will have used various magical means to find out the attacker is on his or her way long before initiative is rolled. There's even a 1st level spell for just this purpose: Alarm.

Now you're just shadowboxing. I believe the correct response is such:

balance is mostly circumstantial, not class based.

if mages are proving unbalanced in actual play, talk to your GM.
if mages are seeming unbalanced in theoretical imaginings, imagine happier things.

Or, put another way, don't assume competent, guileful wizards if you don't assume the same for the other classes.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

who's your daddy?

IYKWIMAITYD

diaglo "i'm slapping your momma right now" Ooi

No, no, that’s not true. That’s impossible.

Nooooooooooo!

[Falls out of cloud city]


Fear Darth Diaglo.