Once and for all- Is D&D magic overpowered?

Willowhaunt said:
I think what we are disagreeing about right now is the projected purpose of the D&D game.

I see it as being the simulation of a reality in which magic and monsters exist. I don't really see it as a game as much as a sim where anything can and should have the opportunity to happen, a imaginary sandbox, as it were. I think pigeonholing the game as a teamwork excersice belittles the possibilities of the roleplaying genre- there are too many stories that cannot happen if partying is the only option...

(I'll have more to say once I've slept and am coherent again)

And where does the idea that reality is balanced come in? A military that is purely infantry is trumped by one with armor and artillery, which in turn can be trumped by air superiority. And never mind the ones with nuclear capabilities. And a good dose of diplomacy can hold all that military might at bay.

The best militaries in the world contain a mixture of all these and deploy them cooperatively.
 

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Willowhaunt said:
General - Once and for all- Is D&D magic overpowered?
Um, maybe?

Depends on the setting, prevelence of spellcasters and how they are perceived by the population in general, how strictly the DM enforces spell components, and about n+1 other factors, where n is a pretty big number.

For every "hell yeah!", you'll get a "hell no!", and this thread is likely to crash and burn in a maximized fireball, as posters bark up the same tree as each other without knowing it. ;)
 

MarauderX said:
To me the inverse is true. With Power Attack, weilding a weapon with two hands, and using reach, etc., a caster barely has a chance to scramble out of the way to execute a spell without interference. If there is an enemy rogue or monk, then chances are even slimmer as they glide by the front line with Spring Attack or a mediocre tumble.

Well, mages get to make concentration checks. Also, the only way to disrupt the spell is to hit them during casting. So the fighter, rogue etc needs to ready an action. If they get hit before their initiative, then they are not disupted, so the only way I have ever seen a mage disrupted is during the casting of a full round spell.
 

Willowhaunt said:
Also, most straight combat solutions such as rapid fire, sneak attacks, and grappling don't work all that well because a smart mage will have used various magical means to find out the attacker is on his or her way long before initiative is rolled. There's even a 1st level spell for just this purpose: Alarm.

Does the smart mage always have the correct spells prepared for that day? No. Even if he prepares Scry or whatever... it's good for that one encounter per day. When the second, third and fourth one occurs, he's caught with his pants down. Very seldom have I ever seen a wizard carry more than one spell of a single type, unless they know for a fact that they are going into a fight, then most of the spell slots go to combat and buff spells - which reduces their effectiveness in other areas correspondingly.

Does every mage know every spell? No. It's likely that most will know Fly and a couple things like that, but it's not a certainty. In fact, the more they know, the less likely it will be that they will have the 'correct' ones ready for an unusual encounter. Now, if a mage is going into a situation with correct intelligence then he's more effective, just like anyone else. Unlike the fighter and rogue, when confronted with the unusual he has no room to improvise unless he can take that 15 minutes or so to change out a spell slot. Think he's usually going to have that time? Heck, no.

Most of the detection and scrying type spells have things that stop them, having saving throws, or have a chance to be noticed. Make sure the NPC's get the same benefit from their abilities that the party does. Yes, they get a chance to notice that scrying origin. Yes, they have saves as well.

If you have a party that does not cooperate well, then things get even worse for the mage since - if there is more than one wizard - they might not share spells with each other.

Make sure you're not making the 'last sentence' mistake (I love that phrase - means 'notice the restrictions on a spell that may not be mentioned until the very end, or somewhere in the middle of a long description) or mixing up edition versions - the spell may not be as effective as you think it is. This is a very common problem which trips up even experienced players and GMs. Conversely, make sure you know the rules cold, or you might be shortchanging non-magical solutions in favor of magical ones. Like the sneak attack one: just off the top of my head I cannot think of a single common spell that will prevent a sneak attack, ie, that lets the mage retain his dodge bonus in a situation where he would ordinarily be denied it. Maybe someone else knows if there is such a thing, but I can't think of a common normal spell that does that.

Make sure they're at least paying some attention to material components, especially if it's something unusuial. No reason to really make them keep track of all that stuff per se - nobody really wants to check off every peice of bat fur or twisted leather they have, especially if they are things that be readily obtained from the environment - but weird stuff, like the half-pound of gold dust required for Fire Trap, or eyelash in gum arabic for Invisibility? You betcha. Those are part of the balance mechanic and, like a stool, when you remove one part of that mechanic either have something to compensate for it or be prepared to fall over.

Alarm is an OK spell, but it's immobile and exists for one reason: to keep something from sneaking up on by foot and slitting your throat. It doesn't do a thing to warn you against the archer in the bushes, since it has such a limited radius. In fact, they could feather you in your sleep and you'd never know it since it has to be a creature that breaks the radius, not an object.
 

WayneLigon said:
In fact, they could feather you in your sleep and you'd never know it since it has to be a creature that breaks the radius, not an object.


but for CdG they have to be in an adjacent square.

otherwise the first arrow will awaken the sleeper.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
It is not a pvp game. IT is a team-based game. The classes aren't balanced to fight each other, they're balanced to work as a unite against challenges.

Balance isn't about who can beat who, it's about who can contribute to encounters.
Psst! Hey, KM! Did you realize that a common antagonist is also classed NPCs?
 

Gez said:
No. D&D magic is not overpowered. D&D magic is one of the legs of the D&D table. The game is built around that magic power level. If you cut that leg, you'll get a wobbling table.
I'm not sure at all what you mean there. Apparently I've been playing on a wobbly table for a long time now. You'd think we'd notice if it was a problem. :\
 

D&D magic is not unbalanced.

BUT it takes a careful GM to make sure its not unbalanced. If you don't let the magic users get away with breaking the rules, you should be ok.

Something else to remember... characters don't always spend money on magic items.

High level Wizards have to buy spell books and research spells. This costs tons of money. High level Wizards will rarely have any magic items other than their spellbooks.

High level Clerics need to establish a Temple. Again this costs lots of money.

High level Fighters can build a fortress again, costing lots of money.

So, your high level PCs/NPCs, even if they have a high GP value, might not have any magic items, because they might have spent their loot on more valuable items than magic.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
Psst! Hey, KM! Did you realize that a common antagonist is also classed NPCs?

That's completely different. Player = PC. A PC will rarely fight a one on one battle, so you arn't going to get into the wizard vs. fighter thing. It will be a theoretically balanced group of four versus one or more NPC enemies, which is totally different.
 

WayneLigon said:
Like the sneak attack one: just off the top of my head I cannot think of a single common spell that will prevent a sneak attack, ie, that lets the mage retain his dodge bonus in a situation where he would ordinarily be denied it. Maybe someone else knows if there is such a thing, but I can't think of a common normal spell that does that.

Not by any means to disagree with you but BLUR does this just fine. Also any of the fog spells will suffice. These all give you concealment and any concealment prevents sneak attack entirely.
 

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