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D&D (2024) One D&D Expert Classes Playtest Document Is Live

The One D&D Expert Class playest document is now available to download. You can access it by signing into your D&D Beyond account at the link below. It contains three classes -- bard, rogue, and ranger, along with three associated subclasses (College of Lore, Thief, and Hunter), plus a number of feats. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd

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The One D&D Expert Class playest document is now available to download. You can access it by signing into your D&D Beyond account at the link below. It contains three classes -- bard, rogue, and ranger, along with three associated subclasses (College of Lore, Thief, and Hunter), plus a number of feats.

 

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Hussar

Legend
I don't think its about game mechanics at all, or at least, not principally. Whether or not a class like a ranger uses magic is massively important from a purely aesthetic perspective, and has big worldbuilding implications. If you don't want to play a magical character, or run a ludicrously high-magic campaign, D&D has increasingly little to offer.
No, it really doesn't have ANY world building implications. Since the effects of what the ranger can do are identical to spells, then, from a world building perspective, it makes no difference. It doesn't matter if your animal friend comes from a "Knack" or an "Animal Friendship" spell when both are functionally identical.

I think that's one aspect. Certainly if you want to imagine your ability as non-magical, a requirement for VSM makes that harder to support.

But we STILL have a VSM component. That Knack from Level Up absolutely requres verbal, somatic and material components. The description of the Knack 100% details exactly what all three are. Now, since something like Hunter's Mark is verbal only, and, in fact, if you go through the spell list of rangers, most of the spell effects and components are mostly mundane and would be exactly the same if they were detailed as a "Knack" rather than a spell, then there is no actual difference.

Right.

And WotC rules say that the ranger's abilities...

...need V,S,M components.
...can be dispelled.
...can be counter-spelled.
...are subject to anti-magic zones, issues with The Weave (is that still a thing in FR?), etc.
...legendary resistance (haven't gone through all the spells, may not be thing)
...are part of other casters' spell lists.

Fair amount of rules interfering in the envisioning. YMMV.
Knacks/maneuvers need VSM components in Level Up and no one seems to complain. In 40 years of gaming I've yet to ever see an "anti magic zone" and since you don't even know if the Weave is still a thing, then obviously it's not impacting yoru games. And, again, having an Animal Friendship Knack that works identically to a Druid casting Animal Friendship is being heralded as the peak of non-magical abilities seems a bit strange. Paladins in 5e can have Hunter's Mark. Does that mean that rangers lose something? I've never once seen a single complaint about the fact that spells cross between classes as a reason for not having spells with a class.

As @darjr pput it, it's not a spell. It doesn't matter if it's a copypaste. What matters is that the ranger can do, by dint of nonmagical knowledge and ability, what everyone else requires magic to do.

It's like the difference between someone who can carve a statue and someone who downloads the stl files someone else made and 3d prints the same statue.
It's a duck. Stop pretending that it's not a duck. It doesn't matter. The only thing that actually matters is the effect - how you achieve that effect never matters. No one actually cares.

This is just the 4e edition warring argument all over again. OH we can't have AEDU structure because it makes everyone a caster and makes all the classes the same! Which was 100% never true. A paladin most certainly did not play the same as a fighter or a wizard, despite using the same AEDU structure and anyone who played 4e for more than 15 minutes can attest to the same. Well, in 5e, we've made every class part of the caster rules. For years now, there have only been three subclasses in the PHB that didn't have spells.

You want a non-caster ranger, that has the exact same effects as a caster ranger, but, for some bizarre reason, needs to call it something else. It's difference for the sake of being different. It's meaningless. Instead of Hunter's Mark, you get Hunter's Target - exactly, word for word the same effect, same limitations, copy pasted from the spell effect, but, hey, it's not a spell. :erm: For some reason I can forage for poisons exactly ONCE between long rests and make 3 doses of poison, but, I absolutely may not do it twice between long rests? And this isn't a spell? Works like a spell, has the same limitations as a spell and functions exactly like a spell... .but it isn't a spell. Or, I can see invisible for an hour, once, and only once per long rest, but, again, it's not a spell... despite being functioning EXACTLY the same as See Invisibility.

There's no point to any of this. The only difference between the OneE ranger and the Level Up ranger is the language used to describe it. It's exactly the same as the old 4e criticisms which ignored the fact that so much of 4e came forward into 5e, but, just with a different coat of paint.
 

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darjr

I crit!
@Hussar but it’s not a duck. A duck can be dispelled and doesn’t work in an anti magic field and a duck suffers from being in fasres.

As an example, some monsters have features that were formerly spells, and now that they are not spells, even if they are essentially identical except for that, are no longer subject to dispel, or counter spell, or anti magic, or magic resistance (maybe?). They are no longer ducks.

I remind folks I’m not invested in any of these sides, I like the Ranger in the test. It’s just that this difference seems sound to me, enough to point it out.

I mean the “stat blocks” can be identical except for that word spell, but that keyword spell auto includes a bunch of spell baggage that the non-spells no longer have. I sympathize without agreeing that it is a problem, not for me anyway.
 

Hussar

Legend
Shrug. How often as a dm have you ever counter spelled a ranger’s spells? How often has anyone actually used an anti magic zone?

How many of 5e’s modules from WotC featured anti magic zones?

It’s all white room theory crafting. It never actually happens in play so who cares?

Anyone? Seriously. Has anyone reading this ever seen a ranger’s spell be counter spelled? And since very few ranger spells have saving throws, it’s not like legendary resistance matters. Heck, conjure barrage, to pick an example, wouldn’t be affected by either anti magic or legendary resistance unless the ranger tried to cast it from inside the zone. Otherwise it works as normal.

We do not need fifteen different unique systems when one system will cover 99% of situations just fine.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
It's a duck. Stop pretending that it's not a duck. It doesn't matter. The only thing that actually matters is the effect - how you achieve that effect never matters. No one actually cares.
Except for all of us who do care, because it takes away from our immersion. It's why a lot of people grumble about the artificer not feeling really artificer-y enough, because you're just supposed to pretend that you're using an item when really, you're casting a spell.

This is just the 4e edition warring argument all over again. OH we can't have AEDU structure because it makes everyone a caster and makes all the classes the same! Which was 100% never true. A paladin most certainly did not play the same as a fighter or a wizard, despite using the same AEDU structure and anyone who played 4e for more than 15 minutes can attest to the same. Well, in 5e, we've made every class part of the caster rules. For years now, there have only been three subclasses in the PHB that didn't have spells.
Right, and that's really sucked if you wanted to run a low-magic game.

You want a non-caster ranger, that has the exact same effects as a caster ranger,
Well, then it wouldn't be magical. Which is entirely the point.

And it's not for the sake of "being different." It's for the sake of allowing mundane characters to shine. For allowing low-magic settings. To prevent everything from being magical, which is an annoying trend that D&D has always had, because it's easier to say "you can cast spell" than it is to say "you can perform the following action" and then spend a paragraph describing the action. To allow characters to actually roleplay what they're doing rather than just handwave it as casting a spell. And to keep rangers from being the same as everyone else, because almost every single ranger spell is also on someone else's spell list. Magically speaking, rangers get something like 6 or 7 unique spells. Everything else is shared, and mostly with druids. Why not just play a druid with a bow?

but, for some bizarre reason, needs to call it something else. It's difference for the sake of being different. It's meaningless. Instead of Hunter's Mark, you get Hunter's Target - exactly, word for word the same effect, same limitations, copy pasted from the spell effect, but, hey, it's not a spell. :erm: For some reason I can forage for poisons exactly ONCE between long rests and make 3 doses of poison, but, I absolutely may not do it twice between long rests? And this isn't a spell? Works like a spell, has the same limitations as a spell and functions exactly like a spell... .but it isn't a spell. Or, I can see invisible for an hour, once, and only once per long rest, but, again, it's not a spell... despite being functioning EXACTLY the same as See Invisibility.
That's right. It's not a spell. Just like a fighter can only take an extra attack or regain hit points once between rests--but it's not a spell. Or a rogue can only get extra damage in fairly specific circumstances.

There's no point to any of this. The only difference between the OneE ranger and the Level Up ranger is the language used to describe it. It's exactly the same as the old 4e criticisms which ignored the fact that so much of 4e came forward into 5e, but, just with a different coat of paint.
No, the difference is the lack of magic. A Level Up ranger will function in a antimagic zone... and wouldn't you know it? The latest Level Up book (pdf dropped today) includes antimagic zone, the spell.
 


darjr

I crit!
I use counter spell if I got it in a monster stat block. Just did a few days ago. Wanna make a wizard really hate an NPC? Counter spell is great for that.

Also I just ran a tier 3 game with an anti magic zone. The Ranger of the party on a flying carpet all but crashed hard trying to avoid it.

So, yea, I do.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
How does one conjure a barrage without either magic or a company of archers?

Yeah I hate that ability.

I'll agree with @Hussar about at least one thing: I think this stuff about dispelling and counterspelling and anti-magic zones is a red herring. I don't think the issue is actually about that for very many people; it just gets invoked as a supposedly objective rationale, and a practical litmus test, for what is really an emotional/aesthetic preference. Sure, it exists, and requires a ruling when something "isn't magic" or "isn't a spell". But I can't believe the reason anybody really wants non-magical abilities is so they can't be counterspelled. (I could be wrong.)

The problem is, it's about different things for different people, and it's hard (uninteresting) to keep track of who exactly is saying what, so it's easy to mash all the arguments together into an incoherent, contradictory mess.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
The more this discussion goes on, the more it looks like the main issue is VSM components. I get it, nobody wants their Aragorn-like character to go abracadabra while they do weird gestures and toss bat crap everywhere.
Well, VSM components don't need to exist—BCMI (and, I believe, BX) didn't have them.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Right, and that's really sucked if you wanted to run a low-magic game.
Sorry, D&D hasn't been low magic in decades.
If you mant to play low magic youhave to cut 75% of the monsters,races, and classes.
Default D&D is one the higher side of magic. Only MMOs, MOBAs, CCGs, and wizard worlds have higher magic.
 

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