D&D (2024) One D&D Grappling

[TheSword]

The bottom line for me is that these rules make grappling significantly weaker than it was before.

Because you need to hit, grappling is no longer a way to bypass a high ac opponent.

Monsters in general will have a much much MUCH higher chance of resisting a grapple, so much so it’s night and day. Not to mention legendary resistance options.

The auto escape removes a lot of the benefit of grapple, forcing them to consume actions to escape. Actions are everything, this is a huge change.


Grapple is weak now, and I don’t like weak options so I’m a no on this right now. I do understand why they did it, hell I’ve had a pit fiend in my game just tossed around like a rag doll because he doesn’t have athletics prof…but you can solve that in monster design, not by making grappling crappy.

It isn’t crappy - it’s appropriate now.

To hit rolls are the essential balancing force of the game. If you’re saying grappling is too poor because a hit roll is needed well then I think you have a bigger problem because every one else is making to hit rolls.

To me being able to easily grapple a pit fiend or troll is a sign grapple rules were already broken.

Now it’s a reasonable difficulty (rather than trivially easy) but at least it does something worthwhile when it works.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Right, except now they just maul the grappler AND get to escape the grapple. So yes....its weaker.

With respect, 70 damage for a high level martial is not really that scary, especially (as in this case) a totem warrior barbarian who takes only 35 damage and laughs. However, Pit fiends don't get to use their fireball and attacks in the same round (unless that changed in the last monster book), so its really only like 56 damage. The barbarian got to do to the pit fiend exactly what he wanted, held up the creature, and focused all the damage on himself, leaving the rest of his party scott free to just wreck the guy.

Fireball was in case they were surrounded by more people, but he could have just lobbed fireballs at the party and ignored the barbarian grappling him.

Also, while the Barbarian might reduce the damage, that Pit Fiend poison is nothing to scoff at. Stuff is incredibly deadly even to high level characters.

Finally, while grappling a monster with four attacks is now weaker, I'm not seeing how "Before he would hit me with four attacks at no penalty" becoming "He hits me once for zero damage and then three more times" isn't an improvement. You made an entire attack disappear.

Addendum, We are incredibly focused on grappling monsters, and no one seems to care how much of a boon to interesting combat this is for Monster's grappling PCs. Again, IME a monster grappled a PC and they basically ignored that because it was a pointless effect, so they were perma-grappled. We keep referring to all of this shoving 5 ft, knocking prone and grabbing people who then break free as a problem, when it sounds far more exciting than "grab him, it is impossible for him to escape, stand in one spot until someone is dead" which we had before.

 

[kapars]

Wow, a topic where this forum is indistinguishable from Reddit for a change. The new grappling rules cannot be optimized to the same extent yes, but the old rules were also silly with what could be achieved. These rules better mirror what I expect to happen if adventurers wrestle large dangerous creatures. Hold them off for a second so that someone else can cast a spell, open a door etc. What story is being told by a character applying the “cheese grater” strategy of dragging characters through spike growth you often see lauded on optimization forums? What does it say about your character story if they feel pointless once this trick doesn’t work as well? I feel some of the emotional response to this is due to players feeling they are losing access to a strategy as powerful as some of the spellcasting but I think that disparity says more about that aspect of the game than this one. I think I’ll go hide outside range of the internet the week that Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Forcecage and the other DM doesn’t get to play options get nerfed.

 

[Baumi]

I love the new Grappling Rules.

It's simpler (just an attack), less easy to min-max to the wazzo, it has more effect (disadvantage to attack anyone besides the grappler) and it also ends easier (automatic Save).

Especially the last part was always so frustrating. Players in my Campaigns never used Grappling, except when they specialised in it .. then they went so high that Monsters had nearly no change of escaping. Then they knocked the Monsters down and grappled. This eliminated the Monster, because it gives disadvantage to attacks and all other gain advantage and while it can try to escape this would cost their whole round with litle chance (and they would just get grappled again next round). So forget bringing cool single monsters. For the Players it was equally frustrating because no one likes to not be able to do something and they might even fail for multiple rounds.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This exactly.
Old rules felt exploitable and basically forced you to either have acrobatics or athletics to break free of a grapple.

I am not sure if it could not be done a little different, as I don't like the attack vs AC, but it feels more in line now.*

I also think, size bonuses could make it more interesting. If you are smaller, you get advantage on your dexterity check to escape. If you are larger you get advantage on your strength check. Disadvantage for the opposite probably. But I am not sure it is worth the hassle or just bogging down.

I do however think, that for grapple, the restriction that you can't grapple large creatures should fall. Instead it should be a grab and attach yourself to the creature.

*
Probably a static maneuver defense like 8+str or dex+prof bonus?

I sincerely hope, passive perception will be replaced by something like 8+wis+prof bonus (+class bonus?) to bring perception in line too.
Actually I think passive checks should go the way of the dodo, replaced by static defenses.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I feel some of the emotional response to this is due to players feeling they are losing access to a strategy as powerful as some of the spellcasting but I think that disparity says more about that aspect of the game than this one.

I mean, that's definitely a component, but casting it as "emotional" is misleading, because it's a real strategy being lost with absolutely no recompense and no clear prospect of recompense. Emotional would only make sense if it wasn't a real strategy. It's reasonable to annoyed that a real strategy is being removed.

5E already has a serious problem where the Full casters get more and more powerful in the LFQW fashion - it's more gentle but by level 7 or so it's becoming increasingly obvious and by 9/10 it's unavoidable. You mentions some good example spells - and yeah, honestly if they're nerfing grapple, they do need to nerf pretty much all of those, and indeed pretty much every CC spell in the game probably needs to looking at seriously, because they were already better than grapple by a ridiculous margin. This isn't a game with clear roles - so casters don't "own" CC - particularly obvious given it's quite possible for a well-designed caster casting the right spells to dominate the social and exploration pillars and be at least as strong as other PCs in combat.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Why would you say giving disadvantage on attacks against all your allies, or easily preventing all possible damage to your allies, is not a valid use of an attack?

Before it may have taken an action, but the enemy had no penalties on attacks. I've had many players grappled mid-combat, and they just ignored it, because it didn't impact them.

Can't you just use an help action to give an enemy disadvantage at no risk of failure?

@ OP

In any case, I dislike that you have to hit AC. When a creature is hard or impossible to hit, you could target another ability and, at least, prevent them from moving towards the more squishy members of the party or move them away from wounded allies. Now your only option in combat is to target AC. It's boring. Less options in combat is a bad change.

I do like the new penalties for being grappled. That's a good change.

Making it an auto-save at the end of the creature's round is a bad change. It should require the monster's action to trigger the save at least or require at least one of their attacks or something.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Can't you just use an help action to give an enemy disadvantage at no risk of failure?

Nope. Help doesn't do that. There may be a class-specific action that does.

 

[TheSword]

I mean, that's definitely a component, but casting it as "emotional" is misleading, because it's a real strategy being lost with absolutely no recompense and no clear prospect of recompense. Emotional would only make sense if it wasn't a real strategy. It's reasonable to annoyed that a real strategy is being removed.

5E already has a serious problem where the Full casters get more and more powerful in the LFQW fashion - it's more gentle but by level 7 or so it's becoming increasingly obvious and by 9/10 it's unavoidable. You mentions some good example spells - and yeah, honestly if they're nerfing grapple, they do need to nerf pretty much all of those, and indeed pretty much every CC spell in the game probably needs to looking at seriously, because they were already better than grapple by a ridiculous margin. This isn't a game with clear roles - so casters don't "own" CC - particularly obvious given it's quite possible for a well-designed caster casting the right spells to dominate the social and exploration pillars and be at least as strong as other PCs in combat.

They did nerf them for 5e… most SOS spells now allow the user a save at the end of their turn… just like grapple.

They aren’t nerfing grapple, they’re making it more effective short term and less effective long term. That’s not a nerf.

 

[gorice]

I really like these changes, but I'm puzzled about the way it's implied (but never stated!) that grapples target AC. Could it be that we'll see something like Lancer, where you have 'evasion' (to-hit number, something like prof bonus + dex bonus) and 'armour' (straight damage reduction of physical damage)?