D&D (2024) One D&D Grappling

[Ruin Explorer]

I have no desire to return to the days of calculating a whole different CMD that only gets used once every five fights and ten characters.

You and me both buddy.

I rarely see a combat oriented PC with AC less than 18 and usually considerably higher. I rarely see monsters with AC more than 18.

I find this very implausible but obviously I can't disprove what your personal experiences are. It's quite difficult to get AC18 for a lower-level PC though, especially if they're not DEX-based or in Heavy Armour and not covered in magic items.

It’s also scales in continuing, because the save DC keys of proficiency. I really don’t understand what you mean when you say it doesn’t scale.

I mean there's no way for the player to scale it, so it's never going to be any higher than the default value. Whereas with the previous Grapple you could find ways to scale it, like getting Advantage on the STR check. So no, it doesn't scale in the sense I mean. At all.

Any decision to shove has to be balanced against the fact that you might just kill the person and not worry about the grapple at all.

That's not realistic given 5E's "bag of HP" approach to monsters. You don't randomly surprise-kill monsters with a melee attack in 5E. You'll know if you're close to the point where you'd be better off killing them.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Oh dear dear, no. This is such a mangling of the common sense rules. I don’t believe a sensible DM can look at a veteran with two attacks and say that the equivalent PC can shove instead of an attack but that veteran has to give up all their attacks.

A shove doesn’t do damage so replace the attack with the consequences of shove. This can be easily applied to every monster reasonably capable of shoving someone.

You're proving my point

 

[TheSword]

You and me both buddy.

I find this very implausible but obviously I can't disprove what your personal experiences are. It's quite difficult to get AC18 for a lower-level PC though, especially if they're not DEX-based or in Heavy Armour and not covered in magic items.

You’ve just named the two most common types of combat fighters. Dex based and armoured.

There are plenty more… Even low optimized character in our games would have AC 16 as a base as an absolute minimum. Easily increased if they want to add any effort into it.

I mean there's no way for the player to scale it, so it's never going to be any higher than the default value. Whereas with the previous Grapple you could find ways to scale it, like getting Advantage on the STR check. So no, it doesn't scale in the sense I mean. At all.

That's not realistic given 5E's "bag of HP" approach to monsters. You don't randomly surprise-kill monsters with a melee attack in 5E. You'll know if you're close to the point where you'd be better off killing them.

The myriad ways to improve to hit roles also improve grapples. I’m really struggling to work out why you think grappling will be difficult for PCs to do?

 

[TheSword]

You're proving my point

It’s a point I don’t have a problem with. Yes it should be reasonably possible at a reasonable cost to break a grapple. Grappling should not be a win-button for anyone. PC or monster.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There are plenty more… Even low optimized character in our games would have AC 16 as a base as an absolute minimum. Easily increased if they want to add any effort into it.

Jesus lol. I'm not even going to argue with that.

The myriad ways to improve to hit roles also improve grapples. I’m really struggling to work out why you think grappling will be difficult for PCs to do?

Because it's going to get broken immediately repeatedly? The save DC is much easier for monsters to hit than a STR PC with Athletics was to beat in an opposed roll, esp. given virtually every monster you might want to grapple has either a good STR or a good DEX (and they get to choose! Very nice! Do I get to choose to roll WIS or INT to break Domination?). And Shove is much, much easier to land than that opposed roll too. And in your game, a three-attack multi-attacker can Shove three times!

 

[TheSword]

Jesus lol. I'm not even going to argue with that.

Because it's going to get broken immediately repeatedly? The save DC is much easier for monsters to hit than a STR PC with Athletics was to beat in an opposed roll, esp. given virtually every monster you might want to grapple has either a good STR or a good DEX (and they get to choose! Very nice! Do I get to choose to roll WIS or INT to break Domination?). And Shove is much, much easier to land than that opposed roll too. And in your game, a three-attack multi-attacker can Shove three times!

Yes, because grappling someone is more useful now and also people should be able to break grapples and start them.

So that three attack troll, has a 50% chance of breaking grapple by shoving an AC 18 PC at the cost of one of its attacks. So it will give up on average two attacks to shove that PC off - at the cost of the players attack that will realistically have a 66% of succeeding. That sounds like good odds to me. If that troll decides to fight it out instead they have 50% chance of breaking free of a str based grappler Pc without effort but will have been unable to mover or be penalized for attacking other in that round. Meanwhile the rest of the party is acting.

What is the problem with this scenario. Or feel free to present another one.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

What concerns me is that when you grapple someone, the only ways for them to be freed before the end of their next turn is for you to be incapacitated, or for them to be force moved out of your grapple's range. Other than that, the target is locked down.

This can be a nasty way to lock down a powerful melee force for a couple rounds of combat by using a fairly minor ally. If you're a PC, that may be a summons. If you're a bad guy it could be a CR 1/2 toss in during a high level encounter.

Not being able to break the grapple through trying to escape can lock PCs out of the main combat. It can keep powerful bruisers totally away from the PCs.

I think they really need to reintroduce a way for PCs to sacrifice an attack in order to break a grapple during their turn.

I think the escape action will exist.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Old rules felt exploitable and basically forced you to either have acrobatics or athletics to break free of a grapple.

And now you need either DEX saves or STR saves to have a decent chance. Picking up a skill is MUCH easier than gaining a save you don't already have.

Now, the only class that should be decent at escaping grapples via saves that doesn't have either of these is Paladin. Otherwise, the division is evenly split 6/6 get to add proficiency bonus when attempting to escape grapples.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And now you need either DEX saves or STR saves to have a decent chance. Picking up a skill is MUCH easier than gaining a save you don't already have.

Now, the only class that should be decent at escaping grapples via saves that doesn't have either of these is Paladin. Otherwise, the division is evenly split 6/6 get to add proficiency bonus when attempting to escape grapples.

But it is no skill tax. This is more important. And spellcasters will have no easy way to be good at grappling. Which is fair for martials.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But it is no skill tax. This is more important. And spellcasters will have no easy way to be good at grappling. Which is fair for martials.

Mostly I agree, I was more pointing out the difference.

But I don't see it as a skill tax, either. Both skills are useful for other things in the game, so are valuable any way.

Of course we know DEX is KING, and a lot of that even rolls over into the saves as it is a strong save.

Regardless, I don't care either way as a far as attack vs. ability check, I just don't want it to be FREE at the end of the round! Give it some action cost (attack, bonus action, reaction even... something).