One Level Scale to Rule Them All?

[Nebulous]

I agree. Something like if a "fire" spell is memorized, such as Fireball, other fire-based effects can be used, like Control Fire, Ignite Fire, Conjure Minor Fire Spirit, Fire Resistance, Pyrotechnics, etc. You get access to a suite of fire-based abilities similar to that Gandalf exhibited in "The Lord of the Rings."

Teleport and Dimension Door could fall under some kind of "Apportation" spell/power that includes dimensional powers like Astral Projections, Ethereal Travel, Wraithform (part of the caster is in the Negative Material Plane), Rope Trick, creation of "pockets of holding" (extra-dimensional spaces like bags of holding), etc.

Essentially, there is a magical "power" that the wizard studies (possibly a talent tree) that allows use of "power stunts" within the theme and framework of the specific power, allowing for more versatility and possibly improvisation that is adjudicated by the DM.

My goodness those are good ideas. I hope you're secretly a 4th edition designer

 

[LightPhoenix]

So I guess I'm the only one who read that and thought he was talking about caster level? I don't think any specifics about the magic system have been released other than it's still Vancian, sort-of. On the other hand, a big announcement (ie, one a WotC can talk about) is that levels go up to thirty now. Plus, you could cast a 20th-level Fireball in 3.5E, understanding that CL was being talked about, and not spell level.

I'm not trying to pee on anyone's speculation parade, but I think that's the most obvious answer.

 

[The Souljourner]

So I guess I'm the only one who read that and thought he was talking about caster level? I don't think any specifics about the magic system have been released other than it's still Vancian, sort-of. On the other hand, a big announcement (ie, one a WotC can talk about) is that levels go up to thirty now. Plus, you could cast a 20th-level Fireball in 3.5E, understanding that CL was being talked about, and not spell level.

I'm not trying to pee on anyone's speculation parade, but I think that's the most obvious answer.

Nah. Saying "you can be 25th level when you cast spells" is a lot different than "Wizards will be able to cast 25th-level spells." The level of the spell has always been different from the level of the caster and that statement pretty clearly attaches the concept of the level to the spell and not the caster.

No one ever says "I'm going to cast a 20th level fireball". They say, "I'm going to cast fireball (which we all know is a 3rd level spell), I'm 20th level, so it does 10d6". At least, that's how everyone I've heard says it.

-Nate

 

[Plane Sailing]

Now here's the trick ... at level N, a certain number A of (N-x) level spells are at will; a number B of (N-y) spells are per encounter, and a number C of (N-z) spells are per day -- where x > y > z and A > B > C. I'd bet 0-level spells rapidly become "at will" abilities. The question is how many of each A/B/C, and what ratio of x/y/z to make the system balanced, keep things interesting, but not make wizards too overpowered. For example, you might start with A = Level + ability mod, B = 1/2 Level + ability mod, and C = 2 + ability mod with X = 4, y = 2, z=0 (and let's assume zero levels go to 5 + ability mod). With those number, a 5th level wizard with Int 16 (+3) would likely have:

- 8 "0-level" spells at will
- 8 "1-level" spells at will
- 5 "2- and 3-level" spells per encounter, and
- 5 "4- and 5-level" spells per day

As you rise in elvel, the number of "at will" abilities increases slightly, but you can increase them in power; the net number of per encounter and per day abilities increases less quickly but they can also increase in power.

I think that would be too complex to manage.

I'd bet that they have three different categories of spells:

- a list of 'powers' that can be used at will (possible talent tree talents, with the option for higher level characters to gain upper elements in a tree for more power, perhaps);

- a list of spells that can be used per encounter (takes meditation/prayer/reading spell book to re-prepare these spells, so happens after an encounter - like the SAGA force powers)

- a list of rituals(?) that are pure vancian preparation. They take a long time to prepare, and once shot they are gone for the next day.

You could then have some spells and some rituals that scale fully with caster level (but perhaps start becoming available only at certain levels), other one-off spells and rituals that just exist at a certain spell level.

Maybe a given caster can have a certain number of powers, certain number of spells readied and certain number of rituals prepared; higher level characters typically pick more powerful spells and rituals to prepare.

Cheers

 

[DonTadow]

Oh my. I can't imagine deciding exactly what level each spell should be in a fair way with that many levels. Perhaps spells can be cast at different levels because the spells all scale? A 1st level fireball could be a tiny little blast?

I like this concept. The absurdity in spells is hte reason why I've gotten away from the 3.5 spell system and went with Elements of Magic. IF a person can cast a huge fireball why not light his hand on fire. I"d like ot see fewer spells and, instead, spells having levels that scale with the class. Maybe a point system instead of per day. That would be easier for DMs and players to track.

 

[Nebulous]

I like this concept. The absurdity in spells is hte reason why I've gotten away from the 3.5 spell system and went with Elements of Magic. IF a person can cast a huge fireball why not light his hand on fire. I"d like ot see fewer spells and, instead, spells having levels that scale with the class. Maybe a point system instead of per day. That would be easier for DMs and players to track.

Even if the core rules DON'T go this route, 3rd party publishers surely will. There's going to be some very interesting adaptations floating around out there. I'm still hoping for a Wizards supplement that outlines completely new systems of magic in one book.

 

[TerraDave]

From the other thread on this topic

From monte cook's website

I once proposed, in a wacky train of thought, that there be 20 levels of spells, just like there were 20 character levels. That way, not only does spell level match up with character level, but it would be easier to balance the spells if they were in smaller, more precise groups. The most powerful 1st-level spells would become 2nd-level spells. The low-end 2nd-level spells would be 3rd level, while the better ones would be 4th. And so on. But I digress...(bold added)

So maybe he contributed to 4ed after all.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm cool with this as long as spells are no longer in set spell levels. For example, if I choose what level to cast fireball and that effects the damage that's fine.

But if its fireball is a 3rd level spell, horrid wilting is a 16th level spell I will tear my hair out. Oh god the complexity!!

 

[Sammael]

I have a feeling that Cantrips will be a function of the Spellcraft skill, much like certain applications of Use the Force skill in SAGA.

 

[TerraDave]

I'm cool with this as long as spells are no longer in set spell levels. For example, if I choose what level to cast fireball and that effects the damage that's fine.

But if its fireball is a 3rd level spell, horrid wilting is a 16th level spell I will tear my hair out. Oh god the complexity!!

That might be it...(but Fireball will be about 6th).