D&D 5E One of the biggest problems with WoTC's vision of published adventures

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I agree. But on the other hand, how cool would it be for us old guys to see WoTC come out with a new Starter Box that had an adventure for just the Basic game, unrelated to a campaign arc. (Wink, Keep on the Borderlands). Sell a different starter box every year. TSR and their glorious ruinous vision.

That starter box has to be a loss leader. It's $20 now and TSR said they were losing money on their old box sets. I just pulled a copy of Assassin Mountain off my shelf - list price $18.00 in 1994 bucks!

 

[Gadget]

For what it's worth, I sympathize and kind of agree with the OP, but...

I also find myself disoriented and curious. Did the great board crash throw us all into a time warp back 15 years or so? Because the complaints of this thread (no shorter adventure modules, fast leveling of modern D&D) are not at all new or unique to 5e, but are characteristic of the D&D market for the entire 21st century, if not before that. These exact same issues were brought up when 3e came out, lo, these many years ago.

True, There was not the focus on Campaign spanning 'adventure paths' (Pazio had not pioneered the method yet as a way to profitably make and sell adventures), and WOTC did have some shorter adventures to 'showcase' the new edition, but these were more loss leaders designed to sell PHBs and such, rather than bread and butter products. There were endless discussions about how the short, card stock backed modules of yesteryear that we all loved were just not profitable to produce. The profit margins were always somewhat razor thin, depending on volume and a very cost efficient development (i.e. cheap or cutting corners), and publishing realities of the modern era made it really difficult. Indeed, IIRC, this was one argument Ryan Dancey put forth for the original OGL: "All these other guys will crank out the low profit adventure modules for us, and we can focus on the high margin supplements".

Now you can argue that this is inaccurate and that it could be done if the company used this process or that (Print on Demand, etc.), but it seems that WOTC has believed and followed this philosophy for quite some time.

 

[CapnZapp]

If the ENWorld forum had a thread tag called ‘DMs Guild’, would that help people create threads to discuss whats there?

I think what I would need is something (unrealistic) like:

* Once an adventure module sells more than X copies over at DMsG, a thread with such a tag is automatically created (in the main 5E forum) for us all to discuss. If no such discussion takes place, fine - no harm done, the thread will quickly sink off page one.

This way is about the only way I can imagine being able to keep up with 3PP releases. That is, I don't want to hear about it when it's added to the storefront. I want to hear about it when it's been vetted through sufficient sales (the ideal threshold being perhaps two or three a week).

And even then I don't want to be sent over to DmsG*, because that site is no replacement for a solid forum system.

*) for discussion I mean. Obviously a sales link is fine.

 

[ccs]

No chicken sacrifices? Amateurs

Does sharing a bucket of KFC with the DM count?

 

[robus]

At the end of the day... I don't think you're ever going to get what you want because I suspect they just make more money bundling 7 "adventures" together into a single book (calling them "Chapters") and having DMs buy all of them at once... then they would by spending the same time, resources, and money on 7 completely different modules and selling them individually (where any DM might only pick up 1 to 3 of them.) Which means your only choice is to buy the full-sized books and treat those "Chapters" as individual stories with the serial numbers filed off, and then mixing and matching different chapters from all the books together depending on where the PCs want to go. So you might re-route off and away from the Caravan chapter in Hoard, and instead find yourselves advancing on Wave Echo Caves instead.

That's an interesting idea for a DMsGuild product though. Taking a published adventure book and recontextualizing the chapters as standalone adventures. Provide a new introduction that provides the hooks etc and revised NPC motivations that are independent of the overarching plot.

 

[Plaguescarred]

That's been the one thing that I've kind of not been on board with in 5E. I love the game, love how it plays, and I even like the published adventure paths. But I do find myself missing the shorter modules published for various levels that I can mix and combine as I see fit for whatever particular level my players are at at any given time.

Adventurer League modules can do the work no?

 

[Sacrosanct]

For what it's worth, I sympathize and kind of agree with the OP, but...

I also find myself disoriented and curious. Did the great board crash throw us all into a time warp back 15 years or so? Because the complaints of this thread (no shorter adventure modules, fast leveling of modern D&D) are not at all new or unique to 5e, but are characteristic of the D&D market for the entire 21st century, if not before that. These exact same issues were brought up when 3e came out, lo, these many years ago.

True, There was not the focus on Campaign spanning 'adventure paths' (Pazio had not pioneered the method yet as a way to profitably make and sell adventures), and WOTC did have some shorter adventures to 'showcase' the new edition, but these were more loss leaders designed to sell PHBs and such, rather than bread and butter products. .

You have an unusual idea of "some".

3rd Edition

Number Title Levels Author(s) Published Setting Notes
953827400 Scourge of the Howling Horde 01 Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel 2006 D&D Generic Setting
? Caves Of Shadow 3* Monte Cook 2000 D&D Generic Setting Stand alone game with pre made characters used to teach how to play D&D. Uses a different dice system.
11640 The Sunless Citadel 01–03 Bruce R. Cordell 2000 D&D Generic Setting
B0001723 The Fright at Tristor 01–03 Keith Polster 2001 Living Greyhawk
0786941960 The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde 01–06 David Noonan 2006 D&D Generic Setting
959767400 Barrow of the Forgotten King 02 Ed Stark 2007 D&D Generic Setting
86410 Shadows of the Last War 02 Keith Baker 2004 Eberron
11644 The Forge of Fury 03–05 Richard Baker 2000 D&D Generic Setting Ranked 12th greatest adventure of all time.[1]
86430 Whispers of the Vampire's Blade 04 David Noonan 2004 Eberron
95003 Fantastic Locations: Fane of the Drow 04 Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel 2005 Special maps for use with miniatures
11843 Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil 04–14 Monte Cook 2001 Greyhawk Sequel to T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil; Ranked 8th greatest adventure of all time.[1]
957557400 Fantastic Locations: The Frostfell Rift 04–18 Ari Marmell 2006 Special maps for use with miniatures
10797740 The Sinister Spire 05 Bruce R Cordell & Ari Marmell 2007 D&D Generic Setting
11830 The Speaker in Dreams 05–07 James Wyatt 2001 D&D Generic Setting
953857400 Red Hand of Doom 05–12 James Jacobs & Richard Baker 2006 D&D Generic Setting
11730 Grasp of the Emerald Claw 06 Bruce R. Cordell 2005 Eberron
953937200 Expedition to Castle Ravenloft 06–10 Bruce R. Cordell & James Wyatt 2006 Ravenloft
95363 Voyage of the Golden Dragon 07 Nicolas Logue 2006 Eberron
Fortress of the Yuan-Ti 07 Ari Marmell 2007 D&D Generic Setting
11838 The Standing Stone 07–09 John D. Rateliff 2001 D&D Generic Setting (minor references to Greyhawk)
95364 Fantastic Locations: Fields of Ruin 08 Richard Pett 2006 Special maps for use with miniatures
109257200 Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk 08–13 Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs & Erik Mona 2007 World of Greyhawk update of WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins
95004 Fantastic Locations: Hellspike Prison 09 Matthew Sernett 2005 Special maps for use with miniatures
955687200 Expedition to the Demonweb Pits 09–12 Wolfgang Baur and Gwendolyn F. M. Kestrel 2007 D&D Generic Setting
953777400 Fantastic Locations: Dragondown Grotto 10 Ed Stark 2006 Special maps for use with miniatures
11847 Heart of Nightfang Spire 10–13 Bruce R. Cordell 2001 D&D Generic Setting
11855 Deep Horizon 13–15 Skip Williams 2001 D&D Generic Setting
88163 Lord of the Iron Fortress 15–17 Andy Collins 2002 D&D Generic Setting
88167 Bastion of Broken Souls 18–20 Bruce R. Cordell 2002 D&D Generic Setting
Fantastic Locations: City of Peril
Title Levels Author(s) Published Edition Notes
Burning Plague, The 1 Miguel Duran 08/01/2000 3.0
Ettin's Riddle, The 2-3 JD Wiker 09/01/2000 3.0
Base of Operations 5 Ed Stark 10/01/2000 3.0
Vessel of Stars, The 4 Robert Holzmeier 11/01/2000 3.0
Alchemist's Eyrie, The 6 Edward Bolme 12/15/2000 3.0
Ghosts of Aniel, The 6 Stephen Kenson 01/12/2001 3.0
One Last Riddle 5-7 David Eckelberry 02/02/2001 3.0
Manifesting: A Tale 3 Angel Leigh McCoy 03/30/2001 3.0
Something's Cooking 2 Andy Collins 04/13/2001 3.0
Tower of Deception, The 9 Monte Cook 05/25/2001 3.0
Frigid Demise, A 13 Monte Cook 06/08/2001 3.0
Ministry of Winds, The 6 Monte Cook 07/20/2001 3.0
Eye for an Eye, An 8 Monte Cook 08/24/2001 3.0
Fang, Beak, and Claw 8 Sean K. Reynolds 09/26/2001 3.0
Sea Witch, The 10 Jason Carl 10/05/2001 3.0
Secret of the Windswept Wall, The 2-4 Eric Haddock 10/21/2001 3.0
Harvest of Evil, A 10-12 Jason Carl 11/30/2001 3.0
House of Harpies 6 Owen K. C. Stephens 12/21/2001 3.0
Icy Heart, An 20 Eric Haddock 01/25/2002 3.0
Desert Sands 13 Gwendolyn F. M. Kestrel 02/23/2002 3.0
Crumbling Hall of the Frost Giant Jarl, The 10 Andy Collins 03/29/2002 3.0
Black Rain 16 Monte Cook 04/27/2002 3.0
Start at the End 7 Rich Redman 06/28/2002 3.0
Question of Ethics, A 12 Monte Cook 07/26/2002 3.0
Tiger's Palace 9-10 Owen K. C. Stephens 08/30/2002 3.0
Self-Fulfilling Prophecy? 11 Gwendolyn F. M. Kestrel 09/28/2002 3.0
Test of the Demonweb 6 Ramon Arjona 10/26/2002 3.0
Haunting Lodge 17 Owen K. C. Stephens 11/30/2002 3.0
Treasure of the Black Veils, The 7-9 Skip Williams and Penny Williams 12/06/2002 3.0
Thicker Than Water 12 Monte Cook 12/27/2002 3.0
Into the Frozen Waste 7 Eric Cagle 01/11/2003 3.0
Ill Wind in Friezford 14 Skip Williams and Penny Williams 01/31/2003 3.5
Shoals of Intrigue 8 Robert Wiese 02/28/2003 3.5
Temple of Redcliff, The 10 Eric Cagle 03/29/2003 3.5
Environmental Impact 8 Ramon Arjona 04/25/2003 3.5
Stone Dead 14 Stan! 05/30/2003 3.5
Road to Oblivion 11 Penny Williams 06/14/2003 3.5
Fallen Angel 5 Ramon Arjona 06/29/2003 3.0
Eye of the Sun, The 4 Eric Cagle 07/25/2003 3.5
Bad Moon Waning 10 Stan! 08/30/2003 3.5
Hasken's Manor 7 Scott Brocius and Mark A. Jindra 09/26/2003 3.5
Sheep's Clothing 11 Robert Wiese 10/31/2003 3.5
Matters of Vengeance 15 Darrin Drader 11/28/2003 3.5
Lochfell's Secret 15 Eric Haddock 01/09/2004 3.5
War of Dragons 18 Robert Wiese 02/27/2004 3.5
Force of Nature 18 Mark A. Jindra 03/26/2004 3.5
Wreck Ashore 1 Robert Wiese 04/30/2004 3.5
Frozen Whispers 3 James Jacobs 05/29/2004 3.5
Dry Spell 3 Darrin Drader 06/26/2004 3.5
Bad Light 4 Owen K. C. Stephens 07/31/2004 3.5
March of the Sane 5 Owen K. C. Stephens 08/27/2004 3.5
Primrose Path 6 Owen K. C. Stephens 09/24/2004 3.5
Tarus's Banquet! 10 Sean K Reynolds 10/15/2004 3.5
Lest Darkness Rise 7 Owen K. C. Stephens 10/29/2004 3.5
Cave of the Spiders 9 Skip Williams 11/26/2004 3.5
Thunder Below, The 17 James Jacobs 12/25/2004 3.5
Shrine of the Feathered Serpent 12 By Skip Williams 12/30/2004 3.5
To Quell the Rising Storm 10 Christopher Lindsay 01/28/2005 3.5
White Plume Mountain 7 Andy Collins, Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel, and James Wyatt 12/07/2005 3.5
Tower in the Ice 9 Christopher Lindsay 02/25/2005 3.5
A Dark and Stormy Knight 1 Owen K. C. Stephens 03/29/2005 3.5
Fait Accompli 12 Owen K. C. Stephens 05/17/2005 3.5
Tomb of Horrors 9 Gary Gygax, Bruce R. Cordell 10/31/2005 3.5
Legend of the Silver Skeleton 6 Bart Carroll, Todd Clayton, Mark A. Jindra, and Robert Wiese 10/17/2006 3.5
Return to the temple of the Frog 10 Ted Albert 02/23/2007 3.5



Even 4e had 20 adventures in the first 2 years it was out, and only one of those was for an entire level range (dungeon delve, 1-30). So no, I don't agree that this is the same situation that's been going on for 15 years. The numbers clearly show otherwise.

 

[Jester David]

However, here is my problem. Probably the biggest problem. All of those published adventures go to level 10 or 15. When you're done with them, your PCs are pretty much done. Time for retirement. I played TSR D&D as my main edition from 1981 to 2012. One thing about TSR D&D is that the level ranges 4-10 took a long time. You could go on several adventure modules and still be within that level range. Just finished the entire Slaver Series? No problem, we can still go play Ghost Tower of Inverness, and when done with that, go play White Plume Mountain. The DM would tie all of those together in his or her own campaign world with a central plot. Maybe after completing the Slavers, your PCs enjoyed their spoils while you went on another campaign with different PCs and a different DM, then came back later to reuse those original PCs in another adventure.

WotC has switched over to compete stories rather than modular ones.
That style of play is one that ended pretty quickly. It existed because there was no alternative. You can look at the original Dragonlance stories from 1985 or so as the first storyline adventure parts.

It's straight up hindsight nostalgia: people played differently when they were young, and have a fondness for this past, ignoring the rough areas and problems.

With TSR D&D, we'd play a PC for an adventure, then a different PC in a different adventure. It allowed us to get more hands on experience with different character themes, and choose our favorites without spending dozens of sessions on the same campaign with the same PC. Maybe after playing 4 PCs in 4 different modules, I decided to use Norlay as my favorite when we did future adventures. In the current campaigns by WoTC, you can't really do that. It would be like switching PCs every chapter, and that doesn't really jive well with how the adventure progresses organically.

You can still do that.
There's a bajillion small adventures for past editions you can run through. I doubt anyone has played through the entire TSR back catalogue, and even without touching Dungeon. Plus there's still organized play.
You can still do that. There's nothing stopping you.

Levels are gained much faster now. That's a pretty deliberate decision so people can reach the end of the story. Years of looking at how people okay has shown that campaigns tend to die and end before the story reaches its conclusion. The longer it takes a campaign to reach its climax, the less people will play. Paizo sells significantly fewer copies of parts 5 and 6 of their APs.

 

[Uchawi]

For what it's worth, I sympathize and kind of agree with the OP, but...

I also find myself disoriented and curious. Did the great board crash throw us all into a time warp back 15 years or so? Because the complaints of this thread (no shorter adventure modules, fast leveling of modern D&D) are not at all new or unique to 5e, but are characteristic of the D&D market for the entire 21st century, if not before that. These exact same issues were brought up when 3e came out, lo, these many years ago.

True, There was not the focus on Campaign spanning 'adventure paths' (Pazio had not pioneered the method yet as a way to profitably make and sell adventures), and WOTC did have some shorter adventures to 'showcase' the new edition, but these were more loss leaders designed to sell PHBs and such, rather than bread and butter products. There were endless discussions about how the short, card stock backed modules of yesteryear that we all loved were just not profitable to produce. The profit margins were always somewhat razor thin, depending on volume and a very cost efficient development (i.e. cheap or cutting corners), and publishing realities of the modern era made it really difficult. Indeed, IIRC, this was one argument Ryan Dancey put forth for the original OGL: "All these other guys will crank out the low profit adventure modules for us, and we can focus on the high margin supplements".

Now you can argue that this is inaccurate and that it could be done if the company used this process or that (Print on Demand, etc.), but it seems that WOTC has believed and followed this philosophy for quite some time.

I agree the problem is not the length of the adventure, as most DMs have methods to deal with it, but more importantly when it WOTC going to do something different versus another re-hash of adventures that have already been done. In that sense, we really are living in the past.

 

[Greg Benage]

That's like saying "the problem with Jeep is that they want to make jeeps, but I want a truck".

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a29009/2017-jeep-wrangler-pickup-info/

Sometimes companies give their customers what they want.

(Not comparing this to Wizards' business model, which I admire; just thought the example was funny.)

WotC has switched over to compete stories rather than modular ones.
That style of play is one that ended pretty quickly. It existed because there was no alternative. You can look at the original Dragonlance stories from 1985 or so as the first storyline adventure parts.

It's straight up hindsight nostalgia: people played differently when they were young, and have a fondness for this past, ignoring the rough areas and problems.

Yeah, I started playing AD&D in 1980. And I remember multiple characters that I must have played for years! Except, my D&D friends graduated and went off to college in 1984 and I graduated and went to college in 1985, and really, those last couple years we spent a lot more time on girls and beer and a lot less on D&D. And all my friends had their own "world" (container for modules) and took turns DMing, and I had a different character or characters for each world. And then, we also played some B/X D&D, and Traveller, and Star Frontiers, and Top Secret, and James Bond, and Gamma World. When I really think about it, I did play a lot of different characters but I didn't play any of them very long -- there just wasn't enough time for that to be true. Some of those characters just made a big impression. Same thing in college, except we hopped from one RPG to another even more.

Not to say that others didn't play long-term, years-spanning campaigns at the time. Just that we didn't, really.

So anyway, some thoughts:

* I like the seasonal campaign event format in principle, both as a player experience and a business model. I haven't run or played in any of them yet, but I would -- and I do plan to run STK after my current campaign ends.

* I do wish they were complete 1-20 adventure paths. It probably becomes very difficult to design for those last 5+ levels, given how much characters/parties can diverge, and longer campaigns probably undermines the business model a bit, but I still wish they'd do it. That said, I can see some alternatives:

(1) Make the campaigns more open-ended while still providing a satisfying resolution, and include a chapter of developments and content (including more high-CR monsters and villains) that DMs can use to create end-game content for themselves if they want to. That way the DMs have some raw material to work with, but they can also tailor the high-level stuff to their unique PC group.

(2) Do sequels!

It would help both of these if they got away from the "apocalypse of the year" theme. If you literally save the world, it kinda feels like that story is over. You don't want to play through 5+ levels of Aragorn "ruling wisely," dying, and Arwen wandering alone in Lolthlorien as the Mallorn leaves fall.

Likewise, if you "only" destroy the Death Star but the Cult of the Dragon is still out there, you may have to come back and face the new prototype T-1000 and attempt to avert Judgment Day.

You need some loose ends to work with, whether you want to continue the story or come back for a sequel.