Ongoing damage and saves

[vhailor]

If a PC takes ongoing damage(3 damage) of the same type from two different sources, then do I add the amounts of damage(3+3) or not? I think I will only take 3, but I'm not sure.
Do I make two saves(for each ongoing), or only one.

when I saved the 1st ongoing, our DM said that in my next round I would take 3 damage from the 2nd ongoing effect.

 

[Nightson]

If they're separate then you would get separate saving throws for each one at the end of your turn irrc

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

If a PC takes ongoing damage(3 damage) of the same type from two different sources, then do I add the amounts of damage(3+3) or not? I think I will only take 3, but I'm not sure.
Do I make two saves(for each ongoing), or only one.

when I saved the 1st ongoing, our DM said that in my next round I would take 3 damage from the 2nd ongoing effect.

Yes you're correct you only take 3. The ongoing damages don't stack.

Yes your dm is correct you must continue to save vs all ongoing conditions and removing one ongoing 3 doesn't eliminate the other.

You could possibly make both saves in one round and not take dmg the next round but each is a separate condition that must be saved for. You continue to take these damages after you're down below zero and it's possible to die by reaching negative bloodied from them.

 

[Mengu]

Yes your dm is correct you must continue to save vs all ongoing conditions and removing one ongoing 3 doesn't eliminate the other.

It's entirely possible we've been playing it wrong, but this isn't what we've been doing. If a creature does ongoing 3 poison damage with a hit, but you're already taking ongoing 3 poison damage from an earlier attack, we don't keep track of how many times you've been hit by the power that gives you the condition to see how many saves you have to make. You make one save per different condition.

I just looked at PHB, and it's really not clear from there, how to handle this situation.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Yes your dm is correct you must continue to save vs all ongoing conditions and removing one ongoing 3 doesn't eliminate the other.

You can read in the PHB that if you have two or more ongoing effects of the same type, like ongoing 5 poison damage and ongoing 10 poison damage, you only have to succeed against the stronger one and the weaker one is ignored.

By your reasoning someone who has two ongoing damage effects of the same strength has a harder time getting rid of them than the guy in the example above. That seems rather wrong.

Therefore, one save for both effects or to be more precise you can ignore the second time the same ongoing effect gets applied (if the first ongoing effect is still running), because it does nothing.

 

[Zerakon]

Let's say a character named Bob is struck by a Pit Fiend's tail sting's secondary attack and then by a Carrion Crawler tentacle in the same fight. Poor Bob!

The Pit Fiend says that the "target takes ongoing 15 poison damage and is weakened (save ends both)."

Carrion Crawler says that the "target takes ongoing 5 poison and is slowed (save ends both)"*

IMO the most sensible thing to do is to keep the Carrion Crawler's status effect as an atomic effect and not throw away the ongoing 5 poison damage just because Bob was already hit by a stronger poison.

So, at the beginning of Bob's turn, he takes the highest of each type of ongoing damage. In this case, he takes 15 ongoing poison damage.

He's both weakened and slowed during his turn.

At the end of his turn, he rolls a save vs. each atomic status effect on him. If he saves vs the tail sting effect and fails vs the carrion crawler's tentacle poison, then he's still "poisoned" but is now only taking 5 poison damage per round.

I agree with Mengu that PHB page 278's description of how to handle ongoing damage is vague. The third bullet point can make the case that when Bob is struck by the carrion crawler, he absolutely ignores the 5 ongoing damage effect because he already has a higher amount of that type of ongoing damage. But I think if this is the intent, it's a poor rule and I'm willing to take my game into house rule territory on this issue, because I think status effects should be atomic and not broken apart. I also think -- and here I majorly disagree with Black Knight Irios's conclusion -- that if five creatures hit you with the same kind of poison, that it would be harder to shrug off the poison, so having to make five saving throws to get to the point where you feel fine is a better way to handle the situation than having to make only one save. Again, I think I could easily be going against the rules as intended, so I'm not making a proclamation about how the rules are worded but rather how I play.

*Yes, the carrion crawler's attack description is improperly worded; it doesn't even use the word "damage" anywhere! However, it's obvious that "ongoing 5 poison" means "ongoing 5 poison damage."

 

[Zerakon]

Let me add something, because I don't think I made my point crystal clear.

Let's say you let Bob ignore the 5 ongoing poison damage from the carrion crawler immediately when he is hit but you give him the slow part of the poison as a "save ends" condition.

Now at the end of Bob's turn, Bob saves against the Pit Fiend's tail sting effect but fails against the carrion crawler's effect.

Bob is now in a state where he's slowed by the carrion crawler's poison but he's not actually taking damage from the carrion crawler's poison. That's why I treat all complex status effects as atomic, because things become less sensible and less managable when they're broken apart. Imagine if Bob's rogue buddy Joe got hit by the carrion crawler and is slowed and taking ongoing poison damage while Bob is still affected by the carrion crawler's poison but not suffering the same effects. Too weird for me.

 

[Nytmare]

I would consider them to be two different effects that share a type in common. If you saved against "poisoned and weak," the lesser ongoing poison damage would come into play because you had not yet made a save against "poisoned and slow."

 

[vhailor]

You continue to take these damages after you're down below zero and it's possible to die by reaching negative bloodied from them.

What? Even after you fall? So, the only way to remove them is to make a successful save? It seems with every question I get answered, Human Perseverance gets cooler and cooler

Thank you all for answering.