[OOC] A Game of Trust

[Guilt Puppy]

Happy Birthday, Game of Trust!

I can remember back when this game was just starting, looking at the pages and pages of posts other games had, wondering how long it would take to catch up... Checking in a few months later, comparing our post count to other games of similar age -- a few posts behind The Heroes of Silleria, at the time... Then, all of a sudden, I'm having to worry about what to title the next chapter, and when I look at the main forum listing I can't seem to find a single game that's even half this old. (I'm still sure there's gotta be a longer-running game out there -- just haven't found it, is all.)

Anyway, I'd just like to take a moment to reflect on some memorable moments from the game:

- The first big, elvish Fendric-Aerda argument. Cutting and pasting those tracts of text was like unwrapping a nice big candy -- some serious classic in there.

- The first fifty or so times Niccolo did something that made absolutely no sense in context. (Massive badger, anyone?) After that it's all a blur.

- Niccolo, at third level, pawing through his pockets to see if he'd saved up enough to afford leather armor, yet. To be honest, I miss the days of he and Merrim playing novelty songs in taverns to pay for a night's rest...

- The Heironeans... Eleven, plus Hiritus, at a time when there were only three players. And all because of one fairly off-hand comment Nurthk made... Odd times, those were.

- Nurthk's paralysis. I'm still impressed with how Festy stayed in the game during this rather prolonged period... and contributed some classic moments, in the process.

- The Great Orc Battle! I've run dragons, illithid, and illithi-dragons against other groups, and never seen a fight feel so intense and involved. It's surprisingly rare in D&D combat that mechanics give way to heroics, yet that seemed to be happening every round, from all sides... All culminating in, of course, Nurthk's great act of courage (and Raven's dismay ). Definitely a classic moment.

...and then some stuff that's still too recent to reminisce about

Anyone else have any particular memories they wish to share? Seems like a good way to mark the occasion, to me.

 

[dpdx]

All those, plus I'd add:

- The whole experience in the halfling village, the battle with that creature that led to Nurthk's paralysis, the fest afterward, the waiting for Nerulleans to come upriver during. As Fendric's player, I had no idea if we should have even been there (what with looking for Premule vs. the quest), but we made the best of it, had a great time, and got back on track.

- The incredibly well-fleshed out NPCs in this game. Every one we interact with is 3-D, with perspective, motive, and goals, even Tatlock. That's a special talent you have there, GP.

- The "discussions" at Yattro's Station. HIGH tension.

- Finally, and mostly, from my point of view, everybody else I play with - DM and players alike. You guys are unparalleled in PbP.

 

[Festy_Dog]

I can't define any particular moments, because I've found the entire experience to be brilliant. I was highly impressed when I read the game, and have have been honoured to be a part of it since. It's truely a pleasure to be amoung a group of gamers who not only want to play the game, and do some rp'ing, but make a story of it. In my opinion this game is an example of pbp gaming at it's best, and I hope, it continues to be an excellant example for a long time to come.

 

[dpdx]

Okay, I guess Hiritus didn't reset to 22, he just delayed for the round preceding.

But here's where I have a major disconnect from what went down. Throwing the bead is a spell-like effect or a ranged attack, is it not? Hiritus, who would have been standing next to him, watching his slightest movements, does what while he's pulling a bead from his necklace? Just stand there, with his sword drawn? Shouldn't he, as with every one else who is standing next to him (Nurthk, for example, or even Raven with the readied action of "if he makes a move I don't like, I'm shooting him") get an AoO?

Also, but this is less important, I'm not sure it's fair to "go back in time" like that. It's a vaguary of PbP, granted, because the DM is not there 'in the room' to react exactly when it happens, but it looks like a really awkward implementation of Rule 0, at best. Many people "moved" in the posts before Fendric did. Was the orc's trigger specifically "if Fendric moves, I throw the Fireball bead"? If it was, there's an intermediate step of "orc puts a hand to his necklace, and makes like to throw."

 

[DrZombie]

Amazingly I must agree with dpdx :0p. On one hand, Raven was standing there, arrow aimed at the orc, waiting for something nasty to happen (and I dare say I've portrayed him as a suspicious basterd well enough by now), on the other hand I don't like to argue with the DM, since it's usually not productive for the game. So for me things as they stand are OK.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

But here's where I have a major disconnect from what went down. Throwing the bead is a spell-like effect or a ranged attack, is it not? Hiritus, who would have been standing next to him, watching his slightest movements, does what while he's pulling a bead from his necklace? Just stand there, with his sword drawn? Shouldn't he, as with every one else who is standing next to him (Nurthk, for example, or even Raven with the readied action of "if he makes a move I don't like, I'm shooting him") get an AoO?

Throwing the bead is using a magic item, which does not provoke an attack of opportunity; it is a far simpler action than either a spell or a ranged attack, requiring neither focus nor aim, and so it doesn't constitute enough of a distraction for me to Rule 0 an AoO in. Were a player the one using the bead in a critical situation, I'm sure I'd hear complaints for ruling otherwise.

As for readied actions, see my response to DrZ below.

Also, but this is less important, I'm not sure it's fair to "go back in time" like that. It's a vaguary of PbP, granted, because the DM is not there 'in the room' to react exactly when it happens, but it looks like a really awkward implementation of Rule 0, at best. Many people "moved" in the posts before Fendric did. Was the orc's trigger specifically "if Fendric moves, I throw the Fireball bead"? If it was, there's an intermediate step of "orc puts a hand to his necklace, and makes like to throw."

The orc's trigger/response was "if anyone moves, toss the bead" -- specifically, if anyone moves at least five feet. The action was readied at the time he said "if I see anyone move, things get ugly." Prior to that, he had no action readied, which is why the others had been able to move without triggering anything, as there was nothing at the time to trigger.

As for the backtrack, I don't like doing it either, but it was a matter of "do I vastly change the outcome of an encounter in order to maintain continuity through two posts?" Really, doing so would have just been an excuse for me to get away from carrying out this conclusion...

Amazingly I must agree with dpdx :0p. On one hand, Raven was standing there, arrow aimed at the orc, waiting for something nasty to happen (and I dare say I've portrayed him as a suspicious basterd well enough by now), on the other hand I don't like to argue with the DM, since it's usually not productive for the game. So for me things as they stand are OK.

First, readied actions actions require a specific trigger condition... If "sees something he doesn't like" is an acceptable trigger, there's no point having triggers at all, you know? The idea of a readied action is that you can react more quickly to something because you're watching for it, specifically, and not employing any discretion in the matter... Waiting for something potentially unexpected to happen and reacting to it is what Delaying is for.

Given the post itself, it's not clear if Raven even has a readied action, or if he's simply delaying his initiative (which doesn't require any specific conditions, but would have him act after the orc)... As a readied action, the conditions would appear to be "any orc moves or attacks," based on both the IC and OOC text. Reaching for a necklace is neither of those; further, if he'd been reaching for a holy symbol to say a prayer or something, and I'd ruled that Raven attacked, I imagine you'd still be annoyed with me. While the action itself could definitely be considered an attack, it wouldn't be clear that it was one until after the fact.

If you did intend for a genuine don't think, just shoot readied action, it seems fair that Raven should have some chance to recognize the action as an attack, and attempt to prevent it. Sense Motive DC 15 for Raven to recognize the motion as hostile; if so, go ahead and make an attack, as your triggered action. It'll be tough odds to actually prevent the explosion, but it's something. (BTW, the Bless is still active)

I see no clear indication that anyone else has a readied action to attack. The closest I can find is "Hiritus has his longsword drawn, and Fendric has a hand on his holy symbol." I'm definitely not going to interpret a statement like that as a readied action (which you'd be committed to take) in cases where it's unfavorable to you (if Nurthk were bleeding out in need of LOH, for instance), so it would be very inconsistent of me to do so now. I don't want to discourage people from posting free-form, in lieu of referencing specific rules, but if you do want me to invoke specific rules after the fact, it needs to stand out clearly as the most sensible rule-interpretation of the text. So in Raven's case, sure, in Hiritus' case, no.

...

Anyway, I'd anticipated there would be some teeth bared about this, so I did take an exceptional amount of time consulting the rules pre-emptively... It's possible I overlooked some angle, but overall, I feel pretty confident that this "event" is by the book. The only point of real ambiguity I could find was with Raven's nocked arrow versus the not-clearly-an-attack action... I'd considered the Sense Motive option, as well, but initially it felt like I was just tacking on an extra out, which I personally hate doing. I am the sort of DM who prefers to see his players succeed, but not if it's because I intervened to ensure it.

 

[dpdx]

Throwing the bead is using a magic item, which does not provoke an attack of opportunity; it is a far simpler action than either a spell or a ranged attack, requiring neither focus nor aim, and so it doesn't constitute enough of a distraction for me to Rule 0 an AoO in. Were a player the one using the bead in a critical situation, I'm sure I'd hear complaints for ruling otherwise.

Okay, I'm satisfied with that interpretation on the AoO(s). (But, no on the last part - I'd like to think I'm as fair a player as you are a DM, GP - and if Fendric activated the necklace, I'd expect (incorrectly) some baddie who could to swing at him for it.

As for readied actions, see my response to DrZ below.

The orc's trigger/response was "if anyone moves, toss the bead" -- specifically, if anyone moves at least five feet. The action was readied at the time he said "if I see anyone move, things get ugly." Prior to that, he had no action readied, which is why the others had been able to move without triggering anything, as there was nothing at the time to trigger.

As for the backtrack, I don't like doing it either, but it was a matter of "do I vastly change the outcome of an encounter in order to maintain continuity through two posts?" Really, doing so would have just been an excuse for me to get away from carrying out this conclusion...

First, readied actions actions require a specific trigger condition... If "sees something he doesn't like" is an acceptable trigger, there's no point having triggers at all, you know? The idea of a readied action is that you can react more quickly to something because you're watching for it, specifically, and not employing any discretion in the matter... Waiting for something potentially unexpected to happen and reacting to it is what Delaying is for.

Given the post itself, it's not clear if Raven even has a readied action, or if he's simply delaying his initiative (which doesn't require any specific conditions, but would have him act after the orc)... As a readied action, the conditions would appear to be "any orc moves or attacks," based on both the IC and OOC text. Reaching for a necklace is neither of those; further, if he'd been reaching for a holy symbol to say a prayer or something, and I'd ruled that Raven attacked, I imagine you'd still be annoyed with me. While the action itself could definitely be considered an attack, it wouldn't be clear that it was one until after the fact.

If you did intend for a genuine don't think, just shoot readied action, it seems fair that Raven should have some chance to recognize the action as an attack, and attempt to prevent it. Sense Motive DC 15 for Raven to recognize the motion as hostile; if so, go ahead and make an attack, as your triggered action. It'll be tough odds to actually prevent the explosion, but it's something. (BTW, the Bless is still active)

I see no clear indication that anyone else has a readied action to attack. The closest I can find is "Hiritus has his longsword drawn, and Fendric has a hand on his holy symbol." I'm definitely not going to interpret a statement like that as a readied action (which you'd be committed to take) in cases where it's unfavorable to you (if Nurthk were bleeding out in need of LOH, for instance), so it would be very inconsistent of me to do so now. I don't want to discourage people from posting free-form, in lieu of referencing specific rules, but if you do want me to invoke specific rules after the fact, it needs to stand out clearly as the most sensible rule-interpretation of the text. So in Raven's case, sure, in Hiritus' case, no.

OK, in Hiritus' case, I disagree. Like I said, he's standing right in front of the guy. His sword is out, and he's covering the guy. What's he gonna do? (Fendric gave up his readied action when he made the move that tripped the orc's trigger.) It's tough to roleplay a readied action "out of combat" whether the posts imply we were actually out of combat, or not. I think Hiritus at least did that to the extent Raven did.

But Raven definitely gets that check this time, and next time Hiritus (and Fendric) will explicitly state readied actions when they apply. I can live with that.

And your explanation, as a whole, makes sense to me - I'll defer to that without additional complaint.

Anyway, I'd anticipated there would be some teeth bared about this, so I did take an exceptional amount of time consulting the rules pre-emptively... It's possible I overlooked some angle, but overall, I feel pretty confident that this "event" is by the book. The only point of real ambiguity I could find was with Raven's nocked arrow versus the not-clearly-an-attack action... I'd considered the Sense Motive option, as well, but initially it felt like I was just tacking on an extra out, which I personally hate doing. I am the sort of DM who prefers to see his players succeed, but not if it's because I intervened to ensure it.

Well, it's definitely not an extra out, from my POV - the orc was covered by multiple PC for the express purpose of preventing a rash move that would once again jeopardize the girl. Think of it as one guy (Raven) actually doing his job.

 

[wings]

Hrm

The spheres are detachable by the wearer (and only by the wearer), who can easily hurl one of them up to 70 feet. When a sphere arrives at the end of its trajectory, it detonates as a fireball spell (Reflex DC 14 half ). (SRD- http://srd.pbemnexus.com/magicItemsWI.html)

If the Necklace of Fireballs is the item in question, then I see something wrong with how this was handled. The SRD says, "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action." If you can only ready a single one of those, then he couldn't both draw the item, and activate it, even with quick draw.

If I wanted to cast a spell from a scroll, I assume I'd have to draw the scroll as a move, and use it as a standard, if Raven wanted to ready to shoot someone, I assume he'd have to have his bow out, et cetera.

 

[dpdx]

Not to belabor, either, but I presume an area effect happens to the caster if he's in the area, correct? So, the orc would have taken at least 8 off that fireball, too, possibly sixteen, right?

On edit: I hope it's just 8, or moot as wings described above, because there's also this in the description of the item:

If the necklace is being worn or carried by a character who fails her saving throw against a magical fire attack, the item must make a saving throw as well (with a save bonus of +7). If the necklace fails to save, all its remaining spheres detonate simultaneously, often with regrettable consequences for the wearer.

...and, I might add, those standing right w/in range of him.

 

[Sparky]

I've got an offline question for you GP - completely unrelated to our current situation. You still using the Crucibleworlds email?