D&D 5E OoO for Dice Manipulation?

[merwins]

This is a little painful. Bear with me.

I'm tinkering with a battlemaster build, and I get to wondering.

QUESTION 1:
If you apply a superiority die that manipulates your attack roll (only Precision attack, from what I can tell), and you have advantage or disadvantage, do you have to spend two superiority dice or just one? Does the effect apply to both "rolls" or just one?

Why is this even a thing? Because the rules on maneuvers say that you can only use one maneuver per attack, not one superiority die per attack. And with *dvantage, one attack is not always one roll.

IOW, here are the options:
1) Spend ONE superiority die. Roll both dice for *dvantage. Pick one of the results and apply the superiority die to it.

2) Spend ONE superiority die. Roll both dice for *dvantage. Roll a single superiority die roll and apply to both rolls individually. settle on the appropriate outcome. (maybe no real difference from #1)

3) Spend ONE superiority die. Roll both dice for *dvantage. Roll a separate superiority die roll for each roll. settle on the appropriate outcome.

4) Spend TWO superiority dice. Roll both dice for *dvantage. Roll a separate superiority die roll for each roll. settle on the appropriate outcome.

QUESTION 2:
Now let's really make things interesting.

What happens if, on top of all that, you have an Inspiration die from a valor bard? It applies to a single attack roll, but with *dvantage, the roll "forks." Can I apply it to a *dvantage roll A rather than B if I'm looking to get a slightly better result?

Example: With disadvantage, I roll 12 and 14. I *think* I need a 16 to hit, but I don't know for sure. I use a superiority die and apply it to the 14. I roll a 2, giving me that 16, but I can't use it.
So I take my Inspiration die and apply it to the 12, and get a 17, which gives me access to the 16. Yay!

QUESTION 3:
If I didn't take any of this literally, I'd say that although the roll forks, the manipulators never do. The rules are pretty clear that feats like Lucky do not fork. They only apply to a single roll. I'd put abilities like Portent into this category as well.

But just to clarify, does this mean that Lucky and Portent ONLY affect the roll, and not the manipulators? So I apply Lucky or Portent, and THEN apply my superiority or Inspiration die?

SUMMARY / tl;dr
In short, has someone clarified Order of Operations for dice functions?

My take is that when you manipulate dice, you manipulate a single roll, even with a fork from *dvantage, or when your roll is subverted/supplanted by some other agency, such as Lucky or Portent. You take the actual "roll(s)," and THEN selectively apply manipulators to them as you like, to reach a final "result."

Put simply: Will and Skill can help you overcome Fate.

 

[flametitan]

1. Only one die. It's treated as a modifier to the final roll, like your proficiency bonus.

2. No. The result of inspiration is also a modifier, like the superiority die.

The confusion may be a result of how advantage/disadvantage works. You roll two dice, but it's only treated as one roll.

 

[Satyrn]

I never would have bothered wondering about this because I never considered it mattering. I'd just use your option 1. But one place it could matter came to mind.

So: It would certainly only be the spend 1 superiority die options. Making it cost 2 dice would be a form of punishing advantage, so it should not cost 2.

So, just select one of the 1 dice options you prefer as DM. They're all good.

But consider that one instance that popped into my mind: A hypothetical ability that activates when both d20 rolls used in advantage hit. This is where it matters if that superiority die applies to one or both. With such an ability in play, there's a distinct difference between your option 1 and 2. And I'd go with your option 2. (Or option 3 if that's your preference since it's just a tweak to option 2).


So my tl;dr - option 2 or 3, depending on how many dice you want to roll.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I think this isn't the problem you are making it.

Question 1: answer 1. Spend ONE superiority die. Roll both dice for *dvantage. Pick one of the results and apply the superiority die to it.

Question 2. Same thing, with the Inspiration die.

Question 3. Portent: roll, substitute portent die, add mods.
Luck: as advantage.

Order of operations:
1. Determine the number of d20s you are to roll.
2. roll them, and take the best.
3. substitute Portent, if applicable.
4. Add modifiers, including superiority dice, inspiration dice, guidance, etc.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I agree with the others that have said this isn't a complex issue that you are making it into.

Advantage and disadvantage don't "fork" the roll; there is still only one roll, and it still only factors one d20 into its results - you just have options in determining that single d20 result that counts.

 

[merwins]

Thanks all. In between epiphanies, I do occasionally confuse myself into oblivion.